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Post by Sue on Apr 6, 2005 8:40:42 GMT -5
I am not really buying that Duncan is epileptic anymore. THEORY: (Not of the murder just of this suddenly extreme but never before noticed epilepsy.) Thanks, Patti for jogging my mind: It's part of the cover-up. Jake has invented a previous history of epilepsy (Clarence of course bought the doc off and rigged the files). Duncan knows he didn't used to have "fits", but since he can't remember the night of the murder and has been told by his parents of his "diagnosis" and placed on medication he actually believes it. The time frame is very murky and since it's all hush-hush nobody is comparing time frames. Duncan thinks it is recent on-set; the med records show a (false) history. None of this will ever come to light unless Duncan is accused and then his parents will explain to him why he needs to pretend he's had it forever. Too far-fetched? I'm thinking Logan's comment: "I've known him since kindergarten and am his best friend...." is the truth and accurate.
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Post by Sue on Apr 6, 2005 8:43:15 GMT -5
Really? I mean, yes, a philanderer he is, but we haven't seen evil behavior on the level of Aaron Echolls. Hey, maybe it was Aaron Echolls! (Just speculation, not a spoiler.) I'll have to think of a plausible reason why, though...but she was dating his son... Or Lynn Echolls--and that's why she's disappeared! Aaron makes sense (not from any clues POV) but because he's been around just enough not to be random, but not one of the "regulars." I guess speculating from RL is not fair? I mean, something like the fact the Kyle Secors (Jake) only guest stars from episode to episode.
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Post by Sue on Apr 6, 2005 8:44:20 GMT -5
Well, the bags of ice were players in Veronica's mental theater of what might have happened, so we don't know if they were actually there or not.... Yes--very misleading. Like Lilly making out with Weevil. Veronica has drawn that conclusion about their relationship.
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Post by Pixi on Apr 6, 2005 9:15:27 GMT -5
Or Lynn Echolls--and that's why she's disappeared! Aaron makes sense (not from any clues POV) but because he's been around just enough not to be random, but not one of the "regulars." I guess speculating from RL is not fair? I mean, something like the fact the Kyle Secors (Jake) only guest stars from episode to episode. I was going to post that but then wondered if it was a spoiler thing. I like your Echolls theories. Very interesting. Going on KS info - I can see it being him - with lots of different reasons. Re your theory on Duncan's med being made up - what about Logan's comment? Was Duncan going after his Dad because he just found out about his relationship with Lianne and thus the fact that he might have been dating his half/sister? Then it would work and then its very plausible in a twisted loopy way. I like it. And he lied to Logan about not remembering because he didn't want to tell him about his Dad and Lianne.
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Post by Queen E on Apr 6, 2005 9:35:50 GMT -5
I was going to post that but then wondered if it was a spoiler thing. I like your Echolls theories. Very interesting. Going on KS info - I can see it being him - with lots of different reasons. Re your theory on Duncan's med being made up - what about Logan's comment? Was Duncan going after his Dad because he just found out about his relationship with Lianne and thus the fact that he might have been dating his half/sister? Then it would work and then its very plausible in a twisted loopy way. I like it. And he lied to Logan about not remembering because he didn't want to tell him about his Dad and Lianne. It occurs to me, thinking about all the episodes thus far, that, with the exception of Keith Mars and Wallace's mom, and to a slightly lesser extent, Hamilton Cho's dad, Mac's birth mom, and Abel Koontz, have all put their needs and issues before their childrens: Lianne, the Echolls (most definitely and egregiously), and the Kanes. Perhaps the real evil we're seeing is this appalling selfishness on the part of the adults, for which Lilly's murder is both an extention of and a metaphor for. One mostly unrelated question: What about Aaron Echoll's first wife? Are we going to hear more about her, or am I forgetting something already mention?
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Post by sunworshipper on Apr 6, 2005 9:59:03 GMT -5
Both this ep and the last one haven't felt as smooth and enjoyable as most VM episodes. (Although the warmth of the Wallace-Veronica friendship and the humor of the parrot-napping story make last week fun.) I think the ramp-up of the murder mystery makes the MOTW seem rather trivial and just chops up the flow. I can't wait for the final eps where the rape and murder cases will be 100% of the story. Things I did like about this week: - They showed us several plausible Lilly murder scenarios and also therefore made each one extremely unlikely to be true. So we can discard the easy scenarios and start thinking harder.
- Keith and Veronica working together on the case from now on.
- They explained more of the facts about Lilly's murder scene: body temp, destroyed blood evidence, more timeline info.
- More puzzling clues about Duncan's behavior: violent fits, possible reason for breaking up with Veronica, etc. (And man, was Duncan creepy when talking about liking to visit the spot where Lilly died.)
- Clarence Wiedman - not only evil but cool and intelligent. He's a good match for Veronica and he won this round.
If I recall correctly, that was believable. The phone rang so she went to the desk to answer, it required an answer from her dad so she went to the office doorway, he was busy so she had to wait. Meanwhile Logan had come in, sat down, saw the files open on the computer, and snooped. Haven't we all put down something important to something quickly, then got sidetracked and totally forgot about the original task? Somewhere else, I think it was at Shelly Pomeroy's house.
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Post by Sue on Apr 6, 2005 10:08:49 GMT -5
Both this ep and the last one haven't felt as smooth and enjoyable as most VM episodes. (Although the warmth of the Wallace-Veronica friendship and the humor of the parrot-napping story make last week fun.) I think the ramp-up of the murder mystery makes the MOTW seem rather trivial and just chops up the flow. I can't wait for the final eps where the rape and murder cases will be 100% of the story. Things I did like about this week: - They showed us several plausible Lilly murder scenarios and also therefore made each one extremely unlikely to be true. So we can discard the easy scenarios and start thinking harder.
- Keith and Veronica working together on the case from now on.
- They explained more of the facts about Lilly's murder scene: body temp, destroyed blood evidence, more timeline info.
- More puzzling clues about Duncan's behavior: violent fits, possible reason for breaking up with Veronica, etc. (And man, was Duncan creepy when talking about liking to visit the spot where Lilly died.)
- Clarence Wiedman - not only evil but cool and intelligent. He's a good match for Veronica and he won this round.
If I recall correctly, that was believable. The phone rang so she went to the desk to answer, it required an answer from her dad so she went to the office doorway, he was busy so she had to wait. Meanwhile Logan had come in, sat down, saw the files open on the computer, and snooped. Haven't we all put down something important to something quickly, then got sidetracked and totally forgot about the original task? Somewhere else, I think it was at Shelly Pomeroy's house. Hey, thanks for the answers to specific questions. I didn't recall the specifics of the computer scene so that helped. (And, if I can remember it, I've learned from your coding how to do a list!) Agree on both Clarence and Duncan. I remember thinking during the Duncan scene: maybe the kid can act, when given the material. Still, there is just some incredible star-quality about Jason Dohring as Logan that just eclipses the other actors.
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Post by Pixi on Apr 6, 2005 10:14:20 GMT -5
Agree on both Clarence and Duncan. I remember thinking during the Duncan scene: maybe the kid can act, when given the material. Still, there is just some incredible star-quality about Jason Dohring as Logan that just eclipses the other actors. Preach it baby. Dohring has just been amazing to me this season. Along with Kristin Bell. I mean most of the acting is good - love EC (Keith) in most of the things he has done - esp. Galaxy Quest. But Dohring and Bell - I somehow feel like I'm watching the A list/Oscar nominees of ten years in the future here. Tom Hanks started on TV in Bosum Buddies after all.
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Post by Becky H on Apr 6, 2005 10:46:09 GMT -5
Both this ep and the last one haven't felt as smooth and enjoyable as most VM episodes. (Although the warmth of the Wallace-Veronica friendship and the humor of the parrot-napping story make last week fun.) I think the ramp-up of the murder mystery makes the MOTW seem rather trivial and just chops up the flow. I can't wait for the final eps where the rape and murder cases will be 100% of the story. I noticed this, too, Sunworshipper. I thought the opening scenes were especially abrupt and choppy as well as the scene when Veronica asked Logan when he was going to "out" her about her computer files. I like the acting within the scenes; I just felt some of the transitions were forced (or nonexistent).
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Post by Lola m on Apr 6, 2005 12:25:07 GMT -5
It occurs to me, thinking about all the episodes thus far, that, with the exception of Keith Mars and Wallace's mom, and to a slightly lesser extent, Hamilton Cho's dad, Mac's birth mom, and Abel Koontz, have all put their needs and issues before their childrens: Lianne, the Echolls (most definitely and egregiously), and the Kanes. Perhaps the real evil we're seeing is this appalling selfishness on the part of the adults, for which Lilly's murder is both an extention of and a metaphor for. One mostly unrelated question: What about Aaron Echoll's first wife? Are we going to hear more about her, or am I forgetting something already mention? I have this vibe that this issue will turn out to be a large part (if not the actual cause) of Lily's murder. Because we've seen too many examples of parents and children -questions about who is the parent of whom - parents not putting their children's needs first - etc. for it not to be important. Not to mention the good examples (like Keith) placed there to constrast and compare. Lola
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Post by Lola m on Apr 6, 2005 12:26:59 GMT -5
THEORY: (Not of the murder just of this suddenly extreme but never before noticed epilepsy.) Thanks, Patti for jogging my mind: It's part of the cover-up. Jake has invented a previous history of epilepsy (Clarence of course bought the doc off and rigged the files). Duncan knows he didn't used to have "fits", but since he can't remember the night of the murder and has been told by his parents of his "diagnosis" and placed on medication he actually believes it. The time frame is very murky and since it's all hush-hush nobody is comparing time frames. Duncan thinks it is recent on-set; the med records show a (false) history. None of this will ever come to light unless Duncan is accused and then his parents will explain to him why he needs to pretend he's had it forever. Too far-fetched? I'm thinking Logan's comment: "I've known him since kindergarten and am his best friend...." is the truth and accurate. It's a complex theory, but intriguing. There's gonna be come misdirections and complications in the reveal of the murderer, and the issue of what is really going on with Duncan could be a large part of that.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 7, 2005 7:23:19 GMT -5
OK - I rewatched the ep and paid close attention to the exchange in Italian, and here is my best attempt at translation, for those who expressed an interest:
Mom has told Sabrina not to let Veronica interfere with her studies:
Sabrina: "If she gets in the way, I will just lock her in the wine cellar." Mom: "But she might get into the nice wine; better to try the attic."
Though let me emphasize that the Mom's line is so badly delivered (pronunciation is awful and pauses and emphasis are unnatural) that the above constitutes my guess at what she is trying to say, more than what she said. (Also, there's this whole thing where I am prone to error.)
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Apr 7, 2005 19:18:00 GMT -5
Spring, just finished reading your review - oh you did well girl! I think this is your best, and I'm with others who think this was not the best episode, so doubly good on you.
random thoughts: Vincent Van Lowe, Vincent Van Gough. - I can't think of a connection but the writers do seem to like to play with names.
I think 'Am I my brother's Keeper' really was a theme of this show and applaud you pointing it out. Also, the shower lie...nice.
I didn't notice the lighting change they used for V &L's scenes together but I'm sure you are right, because those scenes were warm and 'trusting' contrasted with the rest of the episode.
I'm in a hurry so I'm not giving you the time your review deserved, but I did really enjoy reading it and adding your insights to our store of 'knowledge' - this will all help me win the 'Get a Clue' game much easier, thanks!
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Post by raenstorm on Apr 7, 2005 23:35:21 GMT -5
Spring - Very nice review!
Hmm, I agree with you that the Kanes definitely think Duncan did it but that doesn't explain why Keith would be so dead set on Mr. Kane. Was he just trying to shield Veronica? Or did he believe that Jake would frame his own son? That part is confusing to me. We've been led to believe that Keith really believed Jake had done it so much so that he'd damage his standing in the community for his belief.
As to the stepdaughter comment, I was confused by it. At first I thought Lilly was referring to Veronica but that doesn't make sense (or does it!). It didn't make sense because I was making the Duncan/Veronica connection but in that case she would have said daughter-in-law not stepdaughter. The only reason I thought she was referring to Veronica was because she immediately said something about Duncan making V more welcome into the family or something like that... confusing. I will have to rewatch that part.
I love all the other connections you caught! I must think more about the murder clues we've gotten this week.
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Post by Rob on Apr 8, 2005 1:35:35 GMT -5
Terrific review, Spring! I couldn't agree more - regardless of the real truth of things, Jake and Celeste believe Duncan unintentionally killed his sister.
Sort of shoots my theory in the foot, however...because Thomas isn't about to reveal the actual killer and method in Episode 17.
Am I the only one who is increasingly disturbed with the lack of communication between parents and children on this show? Heck, in this episode Sabrina and her mother are the only ones who share, and even then it's in a foreign tongue.
One small ray of hope was the long overdue sharing of information between Keith and Veronica. I guess one could make a case he was trying to protect her, but I still can't buy that he'd truly believe she'd let it go. Keith knows his Veronica better than that. As a result, she had to learn some very disturbing facts on her own...and he could have spared her some of it. He's known of Koontz's illness all along, for example.
Even with that overdue share-festl, we're still left with:
1. The Kanes, who clearly believe Duncan killed his sister.
2. The Echolls family. Lord knows they don't share very much (if anything).
3. The Mars family. Why, pray tell, would Veronica not tell Keith where his wife is? Did Lianne ask her daughter not to say? This is totally inexplicable to me.
Now for something mildly unsettling: I'd like to think Logan is genuinely mellowing and growing closer to Veronica...but I found myself suspicious that he was intentionally leading her in a certain direction. His own alibi may be airtight, but could he be protecting someone?
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