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Post by Rob on Apr 8, 2005 1:52:03 GMT -5
Something keeps tickling at the back of my mind...do we have a timeline between Veronica's rape and Lilly's murder? Which came first, and by how long? I'm almost sure the murder came first...
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Post by Sue on Apr 8, 2005 5:56:48 GMT -5
Something keeps tickling at the back of my mind...do we have a timeline between Veronica's rape and Lilly's murder? Which came first, and by how long? I'm almost sure the murder came first... Yes, I believe so. She only went to the party to prove she was still with the "in" crowd--after her father had been de-sheriffed. So, a fair while after the murder: long enough for some investigation, outrage, and recall. Weeks, if not a few months.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 8, 2005 7:12:23 GMT -5
Spring, just finished reading your review - oh you did well girl! I think this is your best, and I'm with others who think this was not the best episode, so doubly good on you. Thank you - I enjoy doing the reviews, though I think for some reason, this was the one I enjoyed doing the most, so far. Yep. Vincent Van Lowe, a play on words with Vincent Van Gogh - a little amusing way to comment on Vinnie's character. You are fiendish!
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 8, 2005 7:31:53 GMT -5
Terrific review, Spring! I couldn't agree more - regardless of the real truth of things, Jake and Celeste believe Duncan unintentionally killed his sister. Thanks for the feedback, Rob. Well - it's disturbing, but pretty realistic with teenagers and parents. Agree - except I saw this as a big thing - a mean, a big ray of hope, not a small one, that Keith & Veronica were going to begin to "come cleaner" with each other and work together to see this through. If Veronica had told Keith where Lianne was, she would have had to tell him that she had been grossly disobeying his clear directive to DROP the Lilly investigation. She was hiding that whole thing from him, so she had to hide that part about Lianne as well, I would think. Now - I'm not sure Veronica will tell Keith about finding Lianne and Lianne being in the dry-out clinic, even now that it's out that she's been going behind his back doing all this stuff. She could be worried how he would react to knowing she'd spent all her college money as she did; she could think that Lianne does not want Keith to know - perhaps Lianne could have even said this; she might think that Keith doesn't really want to know where his wife is, given what she has found out about her Mom's lack of . . . perfection as a wife. Basically, she would be worried he would strongly object to what she did and possibly try to interfere. And even more simply - Veronica does not like facing Dad's disapproval. Interesting theory. I believe the airtight alibi for Logan; I do believe we are meant to take him off the suspect list. But I do believe he is quite capable of trying to mislead Veronica if he thought he had to, to protect someone he loved. But - well, overall, I would say this is unlikely. The only people that Logan seems to love enough for something like this are Duncan and his Mom. He wasn't protecting Duncan, since he was giving Veronica info about how he once saw Duncan attacking Jake. And his Mom . . . I would hate for Lynn Echolls to be the murderer, just plotwise. It would be so unsatisfactorily out-of-the-blue . Motives and circumstances would have to be concocted out of whole cloth, very late in the game here. Ugh. I hope not. I don't think Logan would protect Aaron, if he thought Aaron had killed Lilly. I think he would more likely try to kill Aaron.
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Post by Pixi on Apr 8, 2005 7:38:02 GMT -5
Interesting theory. I believe the airtight alibi for Logan; I do believe we are meant to take him off the suspect list. But I do believe he is quite capable of trying to mislead Veronica if he thought he had to, to protect someone he loved. But - well, overall, I would say this is unlikely. The only people that Logan seems to love enough for something like this are Duncan and his Mom. He wasn't protecting Duncan, since he was giving Veronica info about how he once saw Duncan attacking Jake. And his Mom . . . I would hate for Lynn Echolls to be the murderer, just plotwise. It would be so unsatisfactorily out-of-the-blue . Motives and circumstances would have to be concocted out of whole cloth, very late in the game here. Ugh. I hope not. I don't think Logan would protect Aaron, if he thought Aaron had killed Lilly. I think he would more likely try to kill Aaron. I too believe we were told very clearly that Logan did not do it. Also I went and rewatched their scenes together Spring after reading your review because I hadn't really noticed the music before (too busy enjoying their time together) and you're right - the lighting, the music is very intimate. They are tentative and unsure how to handle their new relationship. And I don't think it could have been easy for Logan to tell Veronica that about Duncan - Duncan was (is he still?) Logan's best friend. Okay - I've read alot about how Logan and Veronica's name spell LoVe. Do you think Rob Thomas did this on purpose? I'm just curious. I'm sure its just a coincidence but . . . Also - here's something to throw on the table - What if Logan was the one to rape Veronica. What if he was drunk out of his mind and egged on and at that point he was still very angry with her. What if they are getting closer - this could tear them apart again. What if Logan doesn't even know/remember he did it? EDIT by Spring: Pixi! My apologies! I tried to respond to this, but accidentally hit "modify" instead of "quote." Since I am a moderator, I have the power to modify or delete any posts - a very dangerous thing in my hands! Anyhow, I hope I have returned your post to its original condition. And let me try again to respond. - Spring
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 8, 2005 8:13:01 GMT -5
I too believe we were told very clearly that Logan did not do it. Also I went and rewatched their scenes together Spring after reading your review because I hadn't really noticed the music before (too busy enjoying their time together) and you're right - the lighting, the music is very intimate. They are tentative and unsure how to handle their new relationship. And I don't think it could have been easy for Logan to tell Veronica that about Duncan - Duncan was (is he still?) Logan's best friend. Okay - I've read alot about how Logan and Veronica's name spell LoVe. Do you think Rob Thomas did this on purpose? I'm just curious. I'm sure its just a coincidence but . . . Also - here's something to throw on the table - What if Logan was the one to rape Veronica. What if he was drunk out of his mind and egged on and at that point he was still very angry with her. What if they are getting closer - this could tear them apart again. What if Logan doesn't even know/remember he did it? There's no telling, but I would guess "coincidence" on that LoVe thing. I don't know where the show is going with these two, but I could only see a romantic relationship working out between them much farther down the road. The series would have to survive for awhile. Logan is such a mess right now, and Veronica is only marginally better. Am not really getting the sparks for them either, at this point - though I'm not really feeling much heavy-duty "sexual chemistry" between any two characters in the show, come to think of it. On Logan as the rapist: I can't see the writers going there, myself. Just a subjective feeling. It would be too "unrecoverable" a thing to do to a major, regular character like Logan, this early on. And it just doesn't "jive" with the picture of Logan we have gotten so far - at least, not for me. He can be nasty and out-of-control, but not THAT nasty and out-of-control. Though that begs the question, who DID rape Veronica? For which I have no satisfactory answer at all. I am hoping it turns out to be some toss-away character.
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Post by sunworshipper on Apr 8, 2005 8:34:38 GMT -5
Great review, Spring. That's how I found this site; it has the best critical reviews of VM I've read.
The check had "Original Document" stamped on the back as I'm told some checks do for obvious reasons.
There was lying going on in both cases but maybe there was showering. Duncan needed to wash off the blood before getting redressed. I think Keith was home in the middle of the day because Wiedman didn't expect him there; my idea is that Keith came home after an all-night job and may indeed have just cleaned himself up.
I thought Lilly was calling Celeste Veronica's stepmother. Which, if Jake is Veronica's real father, Celeste techically is. She's not Veronica's mother but is married to Veronica's father.
I recall being informed that Lilly was a junior when she died and was one year older than Duncan, Veronica, and Logan. (Those three were sophmores at the time of Lilly's death.) I don't know if that's canon or something Rob Thomas said.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 8, 2005 8:44:57 GMT -5
Great review, Spring. That's how I found this site; it has the best critical reviews of VM I've read. Thanks for the positive feedback. I appreciate it very much. Oh! I will have to take a look at this on a rewatch. I just remembered thinking "what's with that check?" Yes - agree. I think there was showering. Just not as stated - as you say, there was lying (Keith wasn't showering when Clarence was "knocking" on the door; Duncan didn't come home and go straight to showering). I think you're on to something there. You're saying that imaginary Lilly was referring to Veronica when she says "your stepdaughter" to Celeste, not referring to herself. OK. This makes a lot more sense. I also am guessing you are right on Lilly simply being a year older. I don't think I've heard it in canon, but it makes sense. I is less confoozed. Thank you!
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Post by Pixi on Apr 8, 2005 8:56:37 GMT -5
There's no telling, but I would guess "coincidence" on that LoVe thing. I don't know where the show is going with these two, but I could only see a romantic relationship working out between them much farther down the road. The series would have to survive for awhile. Logan is such a mess right now, and Veronica is only marginally better. Am not really getting the sparks for them either, at this point - though I'm not really feeling much heavy-duty "sexual chemistry" between any two characters in the show, come to think of it. On Logan as the rapist: I can't see the writers going there, myself. Just a subjective feeling. It would be too "unrecoverable" a thing to do to a major, regular character like Logan, this early on. And it just doesn't "jive" with the picture of Logan we have gotten so far - at least, not for me. He can be nasty and out-of-control, but not THAT nasty and out-of-control. Though that begs the question, who DID rape Veronica? For which I have no satisfactory answer at all. I am hoping it turns out to be some toss-away character. I certainly don't want it to be Logan because I definetely get the sparks between them. I threw it out there only conjecturely and thinking it would only be a possibility if he was drunk out of his mind and there were others participating in it/egging him on. And I'm sure it probably was a coincidence about the name but still . . . . it's interesting.
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Post by raenstorm on Apr 8, 2005 10:11:07 GMT -5
Great review, Spring. That's how I found this site; it has the best critical reviews of VM I've read. The check had "Original Document" stamped on the back as I'm told some checks do for obvious reasons. There was lying going on in both cases but maybe there was showering. Duncan needed to wash off the blood before getting redressed. I think Keith was home in the middle of the day because Wiedman didn't expect him there; my idea is that Keith came home after an all-night job and may indeed have just cleaned himself up. I thought Lilly was calling Celeste Veronica's stepmother. Which, if Jake is Veronica's real father, Celeste techically is. She's not Veronica's mother but is married to Veronica's father. I recall being informed that Lilly was a junior when she died and was one year older than Duncan, Veronica, and Logan. (Those three were sophmores at the time of Lilly's death.) I don't know if that's canon or something Rob Thomas said. I agree with you on the Lilly referring to Veronica as Celeste's stepdaughter. At first, as I said in my post on the previous page, I was confused as to why Lilly would do that but I've since thought about it and realized that we weren't seeing an actual flashback. We were seeing a scene that Veronica was imagining (and can I just say that I wish they would more clearly distinguish between that REAL flashbacks and IMAGINARY flashbacks in some way). Given all the clues that Veronica has gotten about her mom and Jake and Celeste combined the fact that she knew Lilly had found out a secret, it makes perfect sense that she'd add that to her imaginary scenario of Celeste killing Lilly. After all, I'm sure that what she has listed in the motive column next Celeste's name. It's actually interesting to me that, in all of those scenes, that we're truly getting what Veronica has figured out as motives for people. Especially since it reveals that Celeste is the only one intentionally murdering Lilly. Duncan's murder of her is random and seems to be based soley on his acting out due to his epilepsy. Jake accidentally murders her because he's angry about Weevil. And, yet, I can see a different motive for Duncan that has nothing to do with his epilepsy and it mirrors Celeste's motive. After all, if Lilly truly had found out that Veronica was Jake's daughter and she taunted him as she did her mom with that knowledge... Something I think was important about this episode is that we clearly see that Veronica is somewhat blinded to all of the possiblities because of her previous dealings with the Kanes. She knows that Lilly thought her mom was a b*tch and she's factoring that into the equation when placing blame. I think she may need to be a little bit more objective about it all. As I was typing that, I realized that Lilly couldn't have really known that Veronica was Jake's daughter. She may have found out that Jake and Lianne had been together but, if Lianne is to be trusted even a tiny bit, we know that even she doesn't know for sure whether Jake is Veronica's father. We know it's a possibility but not a definite. So, all Lilly could know is that she MIGHT be his daughter. That makes me doubt whether that's the secret Lilly discovered. It just doesn't fit right for me. Lilly revealed that she had a big secret to share with Veronica on the heels of Veronica asking her what's wrong with Duncan and Lilly dismissing it. She was excited about the secret rather than doom and gloomy. Lilly would have known that secret would devestate Veronica so I just can't see her being so ... cheerful(?) about the prospect of knowing/telling Veronica. I beginning to feel like that there's a good bit of misdirection in that particular storyline.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 8, 2005 11:15:09 GMT -5
I agree with you on the Lilly referring to Veronica as Celeste's stepdaughter. At first, as I said in my post on the previous page, I was confused as to why Lilly would do that but I've since thought about it and realized that we weren't seeing an actual flashback. We were seeing a scene that Veronica was imagining (and can I just say that I wish they would more clearly distinguish between that REAL flashbacks and IMAGINARY flashbacks in some way). Given all the clues that Veronica has gotten about her mom and Jake and Celeste combined the fact that she knew Lilly had found out a secret, it makes perfect sense that she'd add that to her imaginary scenario of Celeste killing Lilly. After all, I'm sure that what she has listed in the motive column next Celeste's name. It's actually interesting to me that, in all of those scenes, that we're truly getting what Veronica has figured out as motives for people. Especially since it reveals that Celeste is the only one intentionally murdering Lilly. Duncan's murder of her is random and seems to be based soley on his acting out due to his epilepsy. Jake accidentally murders her because he's angry about Weevil. And, yet, I can see a different motive for Duncan that has nothing to do with his epilepsy and it mirrors Celeste's motive. After all, if Lilly truly had found out that Veronica was Jake's daughter and she taunted him as she did her mom with that knowledge... Something I think was important about this episode is that we clearly see that Veronica is somewhat blinded to all of the possiblities because of her previous dealings with the Kanes. She knows that Lilly thought her mom was a b*tch and she's factoring that into the equation when placing blame. I think she may need to be a little bit more objective about it all. As I was typing that, I realized that Lilly couldn't have really known that Veronica was Jake's daughter. She may have found out that Jake and Lianne had been together but, if Lianne is to be trusted even a tiny bit, we know that even she doesn't know for sure whether Jake is Veronica's father. We know it's a possibility but not a definite. So, all Lilly could know is that she MIGHT be his daughter. That makes me doubt whether that's the secret Lilly discovered. It just doesn't fit right for me. Lilly revealed that she had a big secret to share with Veronica on the heels of Veronica asking her what's wrong with Duncan and Lilly dismissing it. She was excited about the secret rather than doom and gloomy. Lilly would have known that secret would devestate Veronica so I just can't see her being so ... cheerful(?) about the prospect of knowing/telling Veronica. I beginning to feel like that there's a good bit of misdirection in that particular storyline. Yes - Lilly's secret seemed like something Lilly was excited about. Either really "good gossip" she couldn't wait to tell Veronica about someone else, or good news about herself, something like that. I think it may be connected to Weevil, who I am not in the least convinced was having romantic encounters with Lilly. Also, my thought is that if Celeste told Lilly (and Duncan) anything, she told her that Jake and Lianne were having an affair, as a means of keeping V&D apart, without revealing the more damaging secret about V possibly being a half-sister. That seemed to be Celeste's plan for Veronica - she was going to tell Veronica "my husband is having an affair with your mother" as a way to break up V&D. So she may have used this same technique on Duncan and Lilly.
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Post by Queen E on Apr 8, 2005 15:19:41 GMT -5
I certainly don't want it to be Logan because I definetely get the sparks between them. I threw it out there only conjecturely and thinking it would only be a possibility if he was drunk out of his mind and there were others participating in it/egging him on. And I'm sure it probably was a coincidence about the name but still . . . . it's interesting. I'm with you; I don't want it to be Logan either. And I don't think they would have spent so much time building him up if it was. My worry is that it's Duncan. That he mistook Veronica's drugged state for something else.
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Post by Rob on Apr 9, 2005 3:33:27 GMT -5
I'm with you; I don't want it to be Logan either. And I don't think they would have spent so much time building him up if it was. My worry is that it's Duncan. That he mistook Veronica's drugged state for something else. No matter who is the guilty party in this case, the storyline has virtually no impact if it is NOT a character we know. Otherwise, it's a throwaway, secondary issue to Lilly's murder...which leads me back to why I didn't like the storyline at its inception. I have a huge problem with a teenage girl's rape as nothing more than a subplot. I keep harping on that, though, so...no more from me until they actually address it again on the show. One last thought: if, somehow, Veronica's rape and Lilly's murder are somehow linked, that would make things considerably more interesting and relevant. I'm just not sure exactly how that could happen.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 9, 2005 8:50:20 GMT -5
No matter who is the guilty party in this case, the storyline has virtually no impact if it is NOT a character we know. Otherwise, it's a throwaway, secondary issue to Lilly's murder...which leads me back to why I didn't like the storyline at its inception. I have a huge problem with a teenage girl's rape as nothing more than a subplot. A rape story can have plenty of impact and doesn't have to a throwaway issue, just because the rapist is not a character we have come to know. I've certainly seen affecting, well-done stories that simply focus on the consequences to the victim, of the rape. And in Veronica's cynicism and disaffectation and fragility, we've already seen consequences. She has been through so much with Lilly's death and Mom's abandonment, etc., that it has been hard to sort out. Anyhow, just don't agree that the rape would be trivialized by the rapist being a stranger, or at least, a stranger to the viewers. Also - I admit I plain don't want it to be anyone we know, and more than that, I just haven't seen that kind of capability in any of the guys we know. To drug and rape Veronica? Or even just to rape her having found her drugged (Erin, I don't understand the theory about Duncan . . . what do you mean, how could he mistake this?). It has to be a throwaway character, because our regular characters - they couldn't recover from such a thing. It has to be a throwaway character, or a current character the show plans to throwaway. And I'm just not getting those vibes for any of the male charactes. To pin "rapist" on any of them would be very hard to buy. We saw stuff on BtVS - like Angel killing Jenny, Hyena-Xander and Spike attempting to rape Buffy, Spike trying to kill Buffy and Willow, Willow trying to kill everyone in the world - but the fantastical circumstances gave the characters "an out" that VM's characters just won't have. I don't blame you for harping on it. The incident should not be forgotten, and deserves proper attention and treatment. Don't agree it needs to be linked to Lilly's murder, or needs to be committed by a known character, to get the attention it deserves. But definitely I agree it has been in the background, and can't stay there forever. I kinda suspect that it won't, though. It will be grossly disappointing, if it does.
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Post by leftylady on Apr 9, 2005 12:18:31 GMT -5
A rape story can have plenty of impact and doesn't have to a throwaway issue, just because the rapist is not a character we have come to know. I've certainly seen affecting, well-done stories that simply focus on the consequences to the victim, of the rape. And in Veronica's cynicism and disaffectation and fragility, we've already seen consequences. She has been through so much with Lilly's death and Mom's abandonment, etc., that it has been hard to sort out. Anyhow, just don't agree that the rape would be trivialized by the rapist being a stranger, or at least, a stranger to the viewers. Also - I admit I plain don't want it to be anyone we know, and more than that, I just haven't seen that kind of capability in any of the guys we know. To drug and rape Veronica? Or even just to rape her having found her drugged (Erin, I don't understand the theory about Duncan . . . what do you mean, how could he mistake this?). It has to be a throwaway character, because our regular characters - they couldn't recover from such a thing. It has to be a throwaway character, or a current character the show plans to throwaway. And I'm just not getting those vibes for any of the male charactes. To pin "rapist" on any of them would be very hard to buy. We saw stuff on BtVS - like Angel killing Jenny, Hyena-Xander and Spike attempting to rape Buffy, Spike trying to kill Buffy and Willow, Willow trying to kill everyone in the world - but the fantastical circumstances gave the characters "an out" that VM's characters just won't have. I don't blame you for harping on it. The incident should not be forgotten, and deserves proper attention and treatment. Don't agree it needs to be linked to Lilly's murder, or needs to be committed by a known character, to get the attention it deserves. But definitely I agree it has been in the background, and can't stay there forever. I kinda suspect that it won't, though. It will be grossly disappointing, if it does. I tend to agree that if the writers are doing their job that the rape should end up being related in some way to Lily's murder and committed by someone we can relate to. To have it otherwise would make it, as monumental in Veronica's life though it has to be, in some way incidental to the season's arc. I know it would not impact me story-wise as much if it turned out "oh, by the way, the rapist was XXX Unknown/Unconnected Character Out of the Blue". Spring, thanks for the translation of the butchered Italian. With my Spanish & French studies I can often make out words and even phrases in Italian but that was something else! Oh, by the way. Yesterday I read the "Kanes and Abels" review by azshadowwalker at tvtome.com. Apparently, with closed captioning, all that was on screen during this part was: "Speaks a foreign language." The reviewer's comments on that were priceless: "What, couldn't the writers decide which language they wanted the actresses to speak, or was the captioner unable to tell? It was hilarious either way. "
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