|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:45:20 GMT -5
Thanks for responding. I'm looking forward to reading it.
deborah
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:45:57 GMT -5
That's what I thought but when I looked it up on tvguide.com it said it was only an hour. Ah, well...I've already set my VCR to record from 7-9. I'm not changing it so it will record whether it is one hour or two hours. -Lee Hollins
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:47:17 GMT -5
Before I even write this, I will pre-empt it by stating that until the middle of Season 6, Spike (along with Giles) was my favorite character. I loved Season 5, especially when he truly let her know why he loved her. But, I've always found the Buffy/Angel relationship the most tragically romantic. Anyway, with "the kiss" (reminds me of "The Dunk" when John Starks did indeed dunk on Michael Jordan, but I digress), there is renewed debate on Buffy's relationships (and while I loathe the term "shippers," I'll use it here). The relationships truly seem to be an eye of the beholder issue. Lee H. once brought up an interesting point, finding that the B/A shippers and B/S shippers tend to differ in age and experience (which made me feel good, because I'm an old man, but I'll cling to my B/A status just to be thought of as young!).
Anyway, my point: I'll agree that Spike truly loves Buffy. I'm uncertain about her feelings towards him. But can anyone point to anything (by episode or example) where we've seen an actual relationship (i.e., back and fourth, mutuality) between the two? And Spring, I promise I'm not baiting. I truly do respect the intellects of those who post here (and I love difference. Hey, I'm a Bush conservative clerking for a liberal) and I would love to get your thoughts.
This was wayyy too long (it is so true that lawyers will say in 100 words what can be said in 10).
James Gaskins
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:48:31 GMT -5
James - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on the baiting.
You asked: "I'm uncertain about her feelings towards him. But can anyone point to anything (by episode or example) where we've seen an actual relationship (i.e., back and fourth, mutuality) between the two?"
Yes, definitely. One example: Consider the back and forth we get when Buffy is first back from the dead. Spike confides in her about his guilt and horror at being unable to save her (every night I save you). A few scenes later, Buffy confides to Spike (and only Spike) about being in Heaven. He becomes her closest confidant, and she tells him later he's the only person she can stand to be around.
There are lots of examples of how much Buffy trusts Spike, though she says she doesn't. She leaves Dawn with him, she lets him use the handcuffs, she insists that he accompany them in the RV on the run away from Glory, etc.
We can see that Buffy is basically obsessed with Spike in Season 6 (putting his lighter in her pocket, basically being unable to stop thinking about him). In Dead Things, I thought the crypt door scene was all about the mutuality of their feelings. They are both longing for one another, but Spike approaches the door with eagerness and a bare hand; Buffy approaches with caution and a gloved hand. Buffy has the same feelings, but she is much, much more afraid of them.
I know Buffy claims over and over that she doesn't care, but heck she also claims, the morning-after, that Spike does NOT make her hot. Uh . . . the girl is in some serious denial about her feelings for Spike.
Even right before the AR, when Spike says "trust is for old marrieds, real love burns and consumes" (or something like that), Buffy basically acknowledges that they have that sort of wild passionate love by replying (paraphrasing from memory) that she doesn't want that because it burns until it consumes you until there is nothing left.
In fact, I would ask your question more about Buffy & Angel, who had, in my eyes, a very unequal, idealized relationship, with Angel in an adult/protector role. We never saw an actual, true, "based on a real knowledge and perception of one another" relationship. It was understandable -she was so young. But when I think of which relationship seems more "unreal", I come up with B&A.
To me, it was set up as "neither guy is the whole story." They represent two sides of the Slayer, which she needs to integrate - she needs to love and embrace both - the way people do when they grow up out of an idealized black and white world, into adult hood.
Notice: Buffy has an idealized, High School kind of love with Angel. Then she has an obsessive, very sexual kind of love with Spike. Neither is true, deep, total, mature, adult love.
It was very deliberately opposing. Buffy refused to see any bad in Angel. She refused to see any good in Spike. She couldn't have sex with Angel. With Spike, sex was THE thing. Angel lost his soul due to Buffy sex. Spike gained his due to Buffy sex. Just look at their names also - Angel (spiritual side, the ego), Spike (physical side, the id).
You might want to check out my episode analyses at the s'cubie site. I've only gotten partway into Season 4 (and am starting out just doing eps with Spike in them), but I address some of this kind of thing. You might really like Surprise and Innocence.
Edited By Spring Summers at 5/14/2003 3:05:00 PM.
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:49:17 GMT -5
I can certainly understand not reading every post on the board. I don't; not that I'm uninterested, but there are just too many to read them all, even though I would like to. It's very good of you to explain your reasoning though.
Sometimes I feel slighted too. I attribute it to there just being so many posts and it's so close to the finale and everything is rushed...
Gail
<Up until very recently I have been meticulous about reading every post. That is what keeping up with this board which has become such an important part of my life and my day to day happiness demanded of me. This board is my bridge to others who share my great interest and passion with BtVS, its world and characters (first and foremost being Spike of course). You are the ones I can talk to about a subject that those dear to me in RL cannot relate to or understand. However due to our welcome growth I know that it is no longer possible for me to read every post or respond to every post that strikes a personal cord with me. With my only computer access being at work, the demands of my job and RL there just aren't enough hours in the day.>
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:50:25 GMT -5
Spring, Appreciate the benefit of the doubt! Made me laugh. Anyway, I loved this quote: "It was very deliberately opposing. Buffy refused to see any bad in Angel. She refused to see any good in Spike. She couldn't have sex with Angel. With Spike, sex was THE thing. Angel lost his soul due to Buffy sex. Spike gained his due to Buffy sex. Just look at their names also - Angel (spiritual side, the ego), Spike (physical side, the id)."- And I haven't looked at your analysis, but will now (I am so getting fired soon), but curious, where does Riley fit in there? I actually stated on the ep board a while back that I hate the whole "which relationship is better" argument, but at the same time, I'd never gotten the relationship feel during Season 6. But will make sure to check the scenes you mentioned (of course, living in the damn states, I wont get the DVD until next year, but alas, F/X will likely get up to Season 6 again by the end of June). Thanks! Your response was appreciated! James Gaskins
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:50:49 GMT -5
//and tried to defend them from those nasty-vampires-whose-names-I-forget (I keep wanting to say Uruk-Hai). //
The proper name for the ubervamps is Turok-Han.
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:51:28 GMT -5
Hi, Diane
I posted a reply to your post to me, but I posted it on Part 27; it's on the last page.
Thanx for at least trying to read my long post about the episode. I don't know what happened to the paragraph breaks I put into the post before I sent it...
Gail
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:51:54 GMT -5
I've seen quite a few posts on whether or not folks overreacted about Ellie's post or Ellie overreacted about the response she got.
This is one discussion I think I'll just stay out of. I'll be over here, playing with my dog. He says hi, by the way.
David Crenshaw
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:52:32 GMT -5
Thanks yet again, David. My brain hurts...
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:53:14 GMT -5
Deborah, my viewing of the preview, I saw no moment where Buffy attacked Spike with the scythe. I'm pretty sure it was a Turok-Han you saw. Breathe.
Also, regarding the amulet, all we know so far is that Angel received a file on Sunnydale and an amulet from Lilah Morgan in the Angel finale. With his concern over the offer from W&H and also over Connor, he never really discussed it, and in fact, tried at one point to give it back because he didn't like the source.
That is all we know for sure at this point, without creeping into my bag of spoilers.
David Crenshaw
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:53:57 GMT -5
// He says hi, by the way. // Hey, sh*thead! No, seriously, I meant the dog. I promise. Ok, I'm in the weirdest mood today and I couldn't resist. // I'll be over here, playing with my dog. // Mmm-hmmm... I know what that really means Dave. Perhaps you should take Vlad up on that offer to forward the Russian bride spam to you
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:54:30 GMT -5
At least you have your priorities in order.
Diane U
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:55:07 GMT -5
//OK, just kidding about the whole "it's a two-hour bonaza of Buffy!" Dadgum, it's only ONE hour, not TWO!
Still starts at 7pm CST, still on A&E, but it's not two hours, it's just an hour.
Apparently I can't tell the difference between a 1 and a 2.
Sorry for any confusion and hopes I might have dashed.//
You aren't the only one, Lee. A&E were originally announcing it would be a two-hour Biography special as well.
David Crenshaw
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Oct 31, 2003 18:55:52 GMT -5
James says: "I actually stated on the ep board a while back that I hate the whole "which relationship is better" argument, but at the same time, I'd never gotten the relationship feel during Season 6. But will make sure to check the scenes you mentioned (of course, living in the damn states, I wont get the DVD until next year, but alas, F/X will likely get up to Season 6 again by the end of June). Thanks! Your response was appreciated! " Spike & Buffy, in Season 6, definitely didn't have a "full-fledged" relationship - so I can see why you wouldn't get that feel. But then neither did B/A during their time together. My feeling is that neither of these two relationships were meant to be scene as complete, full, man-woman, romantic relationships. Well, I confess I hesitated on the benefit of the doubt thing, but your response confirms no "baiting" was involved. Thanks so much for realizing we might all be hesitant, and addressing it upfront. Spring Summers
|
|