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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Apr 9, 2004 21:31:14 GMT -5
I’m a newbie here. To start with, I must say that found Nan’s review of Shells one of the most sensitive and insightful pieces of criticism it has been my pleasure to read. The way the images of the chrysalis and butterfly were used to tie together the various themes was brilliant. I have seen a lot of tragedy on Buffy and Angel, but nothing compared to this. Putting aside the newness of Fred’s and Wes’s relationship (a typical way for Joss to pull on our heart strings!), there was a build-up of several shocks to the system. That we watched Fred slowly die in agony and terror was terrible. That we were told she can never return is terrible. But the idea that her soul has been destroyed? In reality we have no idea if anything survives death, yet in Angel, a show in which the afterlife is a commonplace, we know Fred’s essence is annihilated. The whole thing is just, well, soul-destroying. Even for Joss this would be a quantum leap in cruelty. And speaking of quantum leaps… I have something else to add to the idea of Fred’s survival. The model of the atom that most of us think of, different coloured ping pong balls joined up with straws, is not the current version. Atoms are not really thought of as material objects in quantum theory. They are mathematical abstract, clouds of probability. In some sense materiality belongs only to human reality. Electrons, then, aren’t objects orbiting the atomic nucleus, though what they are is hard for me to say; apparently they are mathematically “smeared out”. They exist in groups called “shells”. Each shell has a different energy level. When the energy level (or “quantum state”) of an electron reaches a new level it “leaps” to a new shell. I can’t help but feel the episode’s title has some connection to this, particularly given Fred’s affinity for particle physics. Knowing that quantum physics is based on randomness and probability, it occurred to me that it might link to chaos theory. I did some research on the web and, sure enough, the Feigenbaum Constant is used in equations dealing with the transition of electrons between atomic shells. I‘m afraid I’m unable to understand what this means, though! The situation as I see it is this: 1) There is a link between esoteric physics and magic in Angel. Fred is able to gain new insights into particle physics by travelling through the portals. 2) In Pylea, wasn’t she scribbling all those equations on the walls of her cave in an attempt to escape, to go home? 3) In A Hole in the World, Wes reads A Little Princess to her, a story about a little girl who escapes from her awful circumstances into a fantasy world of her own making. 4) Fred says she is determined “they” will not take her. 5) In her pain she cries out “Feigenbaum!” The rabbit appears in the flashback at the start of A Hole in the World and when Wesley is packing up her things. What does this signify? And what was the purpose of those two flashbacks? 6) In Lineage she criticises Wesley for patronising her by saying he should have protected her. All her “boys” fail her this time, so maybe she has saved herself. Joss is very keen on female empowerment. All very good thinking, Riff! I'm glad you've joined us. I know next to nothing about Chaos Theory or the current state of thought about atomic reality. However, this is Fred's strong suit, as you said. So I find your theory that Fred may have somehow worked her own soul's survival through manipulation of physical states--as an electron or atom can change states--sounds a very promising one to me. However, to work, it would have to be persuasive and capable of being made clear to the average viewer--if only physicists can understand how Fred survived (presuming she does), it's bad drama! So you may well be right, and if you are, I'm even more interested than before how ME are going to express this dramatically, in an accessible form. New episode next week, even though it's the first of the last. I hope you'll come visit and share your thoughts with us again, either after it airs or before. We can never have an excess of good thinking, good writing, and good ideas on this board, and you've brought all of them!
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 9, 2004 21:38:24 GMT -5
All very good thinking, Riff! I'm glad you've joined us. I know next to nothing about Chaos Theory or the current state of thought about atomic reality. However, this is Fred's strong suit, as you said. So I find your theory that Fred may have somehow worked her own soul's survival through manipulation of physical states--as an electron or atom can change states--sounds a very promising one to me. However, to work, it would have to be persuasive and capable of being made clear to the average viewer--if only physicists can understand how Fred survived (presuming she does), it's bad drama! So you may well be right, and if you are, I'm even more interested than before how ME are going to express this dramatically, in an accessible form. New episode next week, even though it's the first of the last. I hope you'll come visit and share your thoughts with us again, either after it airs or before. We can never have an excess of good thinking, good writing, and good ideas on this board, and you've brought all of them! Just a note to add my encouragement to Nan's, Riff. Liked your clear style and interesting thoughts. Nan - I agree, AtS isn't going to require a physics degree of its viewers. Like you, I agree with Riff that Fred's calling out of Feigenbaum's name could suggest that IF she finds her way back somehow, they'll be a suggestion that her scientific knowledge has played a part - but I don't think it can go much farther than that. Fred returning in any way, shape, or form after being liquified and hollowed out would require some major "contrary to the laws of the physical universe" things to happen - so magic will have to play some part as well. But that suits Fred: Magic and science.
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Post by sylvia on Apr 10, 2004 4:44:59 GMT -5
Just a note to add my encouragement to Nan's, Riff. Liked your clear style and interesting thoughts. Nan - I agree, AtS isn't going to require a physics degree of its viewers. Fred returning in any way, shape, or form after being liquified and hollowed out would require some major "contrary to the laws of the physical universe" things to happen - so magic will have to play some part as well. But that suits Fred: Magic and science. Fred used those words (or very much like them) when bringing Spike back into a corporeal state. I am glad you brought up the subject of science and the non-science viewer. There has been a great deal of the new science i.e., fractual geometery, chaos theory, etc. to this season. I do think that it applies but only as a very distinct sub-text for a very small part of the viewers. And while I do not suggest that the audience could not understand this scientific application I agree totally with you - this is a drama about people existing in the realtime world, not the abstractions of Universal Forces. I do expect that some time travel or trans-dimensional shifts will somehow be a part of the finale, either through magic or combination of magic & science but it should be within the understanding of the non-science viewer. Just as I view this season as an application of Jungian, Joseph Cambell, and concepts relating to the Kundalini Yoga Chakra ideas, it is a sub-text from a personal view point - not a topic of interest for all the viewers, but very interesting from a mythic point of view. Are you familiar with the timestream concepts from The Flash and the other time speed travellers?
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Post by Riff on Apr 10, 2004 9:05:03 GMT -5
Nan, SpringSummers, thanks for the kind words. It’s good to find a site with some thoughtful participants.
Sylvia’s point about Fred thinking in both scientific and magical terms to return Spike, soul and all, to a corporeal state may be significant. Who knows what discoveries she may have uncovered? And why was this theme part of the season anyway, since she was unsuccessful? Was it purely to create an emotional connection between her and Spike?
In relation to the idea of the chrysalis, I have to wonder whether we will see Illyria’s sarcophagous again, and what role it might have, in particular the crystals. At the start of A Hole in the World, Fred talks about the creatures she has just torched: “Kind of cool, physiologically. They reproduce by vomiting up crystals that attract and mutate the microbes around them to form eggs.” I may be reaching, but it is an interesting connection.
On a slightly different note, it seems that this whole state of affairs was foreshadowed in earlier episodes. During Angel’s hallucination of Fred in Soul Purpose, when she removes Angel’s soul (a dead goldfish), she says, “I can't seem to find anything wrong with you. I mean... ...except that you're empty. There's nothing left. Just a shell. I think I can hear the ocean in there.”
phlebotinin on whedonesque.com noticed an interesting exchange between Fred and Gunn in Sacrifice (season four)-
GUNN You heard Angel. Feelings don't enter into it anymore.
FRED (irritated) That the world we're fighting for? The right to be heartless, an uncaring shell? To be dead inside?
[12 lines later]
FRED You're right about all of it except for one thing. What we did, I felt it. Every bit of it. And, you know, sometimes when I allow myself to think about it, it eats me up inside.
GUNN Yeah, me, too.
FRED Well, I don't know about you, but... I'd take that over being a shell any day.
Coincidence or not?
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Post by Sue on Apr 10, 2004 9:37:49 GMT -5
There has been a great deal of the new science i.e., fractual geometery, chaos theory, etc. to this season. I do think that it applies but only as a very distinct sub-text for a very small part of the viewers. And while I do not suggest that the audience could not understand this scientific application I agree totally with you - this is a drama about people existing in the realtime world, not the abstractions of Universal Forces. Just as I view this season as an application of Jungian, Joseph Cambell, and concepts relating to the Kundalini Yoga Chakra ideas, it is a sub-text from a personal view point - not a topic of interest for all the viewers, but very interesting from a mythic point of view. Are you familiar with the timestream concepts from The Flash and the other time speed travellers? Which makes me wonder: I have a lot of respect for writers hired by ME. Given the plotlines, characterizations, continuity, vocabulary and even sentence structure it's clear that they are extremely bright people. Still, do you think that they themselves really have any true understanding of the math, physics or philosophical concepts mentioned above? Personally, I doubt that they have any more understanding of the math and science than the average viewer. (Wonder if there is a "technical consultant" on staff like ER has a doctor and L&O has a lawyer?) As for the philosophies. I also wonder whether they are aware of them or in simply writing methaphorically about the complexities and vagarities of life these concepts simply insert themselves into the (sub)text? It certainly helps to have "magic" to fall back on as an explanation. Much of quantum physics (the tiny tiny bit I can even begin to think I understand) seems like magic to me most of the time anyway.
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Post by nmcil on Apr 10, 2004 13:33:13 GMT -5
Nan, SpringSummers, thanks for the kind words. It’s good to find a site with some thoughtful participants. On a slightly different note, it seems that this whole state of affairs was foreshadowed in earlier episodes. During Angel’s hallucination of Fred in Soul Purpose, when she removes Angel’s soul (a dead goldfish), she says, “I can't seem to find anything wrong with you. I mean... ...except that you're empty. There's nothing left. Just a shell. I think I can hear the ocean in there.” phlebotinin on whedonesque.com noticed an interesting exchange between Fred and Gunn in Sacrifice (season four)- GUNN You heard Angel. Feelings don't enter into it anymore. FRED (irritated) That the world we're fighting for? The right to be heartless, an uncaring shell? To be dead inside? [12 lines later] FRED You're right about all of it except for one thing. What we did, I felt it. Every bit of it. And, you know, sometimes when I allow myself to think about it, it eats me up inside. GUNN Yeah, me, too. FRED Well, I don't know about you, but... I'd take that over being a shell any day. Coincidence or not? This is not a coincidence - practically the entire season, thus far, was put forth in Convictions and Just Rewards - especially the Fred/Knox/Wesley triangle that culminates in Illyria. If you look at the set design used in the scene with Fred and Knox you are given visual images that tell the story. Fred as prey-toy duck & Dixie Chicks poster, Knox handles the boxes-Pandora's Box both evils and hope and Wesley wanting to help Fred and still very much in Love with her. Throughout the entire season the story lines are given and usually resolved in 3 or 6 episodes and the opening season main topics continue to the end. Look at the artwork in Destiny - you will see paintings of a black and white knight, you see Spike sitting between two door guardians, and you see paintings of what looks like doctors operating or doing an excavation of a patient or cadaver. I go with cadaver because that is how education (medical) was done in early medicine. From my perspective Illyria seems to be a symbol of resurrection, like a moon symbol. The Lions that appear in Angel's office and also in Wesley's are symbols of resurrection also - but of the Sun being in ascendent state. The Moon, also The Cup with Drink, can represent the cycle of death and resurrection and The Sun can represent a state of existence that, like in Hindu and Buddhist religious system, has gone beyond the attachment to this world and inhabits the purely spiritual realm.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 10, 2004 23:25:39 GMT -5
Fred used those words (or very much like them) when bringing Spike back into a corporeal state. I am glad you brought up the subject of science and the non-science viewer. There has been a great deal of the new science i.e., fractual geometery, chaos theory, etc. to this season. I do think that it applies but only as a very distinct sub-text for a very small part of the viewers. And while I do not suggest that the audience could not understand this scientific application I agree totally with you - this is a drama about people existing in the realtime world, not the abstractions of Universal Forces. I do expect that some time travel or trans-dimensional shifts will somehow be a part of the finale, either through magic or combination of magic & science but it should be within the understanding of the non-science viewer. Just as I view this season as an application of Jungian, Joseph Cambell, and concepts relating to the Kundalini Yoga Chakra ideas, it is a sub-text from a personal view point - not a topic of interest for all the viewers, but very interesting from a mythic point of view. Are you familiar with the timestream concepts from The Flash and the other time speed travellers? No - not familiar with the timestream concepts from The Flash . . . have certainly read books and seen movies and TV shows that presented various theories of time-travel. Don't know if this will all play into the finale or not. I see the "Connor thing" as the most outstanding issue to be resolved . . . so well, I just don't know. That seems to have been a "mind-wipe" rather than a "creation of a new time stream" thing.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 10, 2004 23:29:00 GMT -5
This is not a coincidence - practically the entire season, thus far, was put forth in Convictions and Just Rewards - especially the Fred/Knox/Wesley triangle that culminates in Illyria. If you look at the set design used in the scene with Fred and Knox you are given visual images that tell the story. Fred as prey-toy duck & Dixie Chicks poster, Knox handles the boxes-Pandora's Box both evils and hope and Wesley wanting to help Fred and still very much in Love with her. Throughout the entire season the story lines are given and usually resolved in 3 or 6 episodes and the opening season main topics continue to the end. Look at the artwork in Destiny - you will see paintings of a black and white knight, you see Spike sitting between two door guardians, and you see paintings of what looks like doctors operating or doing an excavation of a patient or cadaver. I go with cadaver because that is how education (medical) was done in early medicine. From my perspective Illyria seems to be a symbol of resurrection, like a moon symbol. The Lions that appear in Angel's office and also in Wesley's are symbols of resurrection also - but of the Sun being in ascendent state. The Moon, also The Cup with Drink, can represent the cycle of death and resurrection and The Sun can represent a state of existence that, like in Hindu and Buddhist religious system, has gone beyond the attachment to this world and inhabits the purely spiritual realm. Oh - thanks for sharing these thoughts. I'm not very knowledgable on this kind of thing so it is nice to read this here. I think very little is "coincidence" in the Jossverse. Scarcely a word or image is wasted.
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Post by Lola passing by on Apr 11, 2004 11:57:42 GMT -5
No - not familiar with the timestream concepts from The Flash . . . have certainly read books and seen movies and TV shows that presented various theories of time-travel. Don't know if this will all play into the finale or not. I see the "Connor thing" as the most outstanding issue to be resolved . . . so well, I just don't know. That seems to have been a "mind-wipe" rather than a "creation of a new time stream" thing. Although, having just rewatched You're Welcome, I did notice that when Angel is explaining what happened to Cordy, he says "the senior partners altered reality". But that could mean so many different things. Lola
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Post by Riff on Apr 11, 2004 14:01:15 GMT -5
A couple more thoughts.
The fact that Angel and co. initially considers trying to bring Fred back is suspect, I think. Why wasn’t it simply accepted: she’s gone? It seems that the main dramatic reason this was pursued was simply so the idea of Fred’s total death could be brought out. Why? Jenny is gone. Doyle is gone. Joyce is gone. Tara is gone. Anya is gone. Cordelia is gone. Did Joss feel he had to come up with something drastic in their cases? No – we accept it.
There is no effort to bring these people back (well, alright, Dawn tried it with Joyce, and Willow tried it with Tara) because it has been established that this is wrong, dangerous, evil, etc. It can even result in souls being torn out of heaven (or something like it). That is what forbids the return of the dead. When Angel suggests the rules are broken to resurrect Fred, why doesn’t Spike, after the suffering of Buffy in BtVS season six, tell him what a terrible idea that would be? Instead, he goes along with the idea quite cheerfully.
It is, in fact, bizarre that what we have always been told – resurrection is a horrible mistake – is not heard once in the episode. It’s hardly something that Joss would forget.
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be with cranky boardness
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Post by be with cranky boardness on Apr 11, 2004 14:31:14 GMT -5
When Angel suggests the rules are broken to resurrect Fred, why doesn’t Spike, after the suffering of Buffy in BtVS season six, tell him what a terrible idea that would be? He saw her bad, but he also saw her get better. Alive is better. Also whilst resurrection is said to be bad, putting souls back in vampires is apparently a different case, as Spike and Angel's different experiences both seem to not include memories of heaven hell or anywhere else. Darlas neither come to think. So they were thinking- demon in a corpse = situation analogous to vampires, not ordinary death. Doyle was dead but Angel tried to bring him back. Cordy moved on, not just died. Dawn tried to bring Joyce back. Willow tried to bring Tara back. So practically everyone that dies, someone tries to bring them back, until they are told they cant or the person tells them not to or something. And Angel and Spike's reaction pretty much exactly matched the plans message board people were coming up with, so it was more going through the list of things we were all saying and seeing why they wouldnt work.
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Post by Sue on Apr 11, 2004 15:54:56 GMT -5
A couple more thoughts. The fact that Angel and co. initially considers trying to bring Fred back is suspect, I think. Why wasn’t it simply accepted: she’s gone? It seems that the main dramatic reason this was pursued was simply so the idea of Fred’s total death could be brought out. Why? Jenny is gone. Doyle is gone. Joyce is gone. Tara is gone. Anya is gone. Cordelia is gone. Did Joss feel he had to come up with something drastic in their cases? No – we accept it. There is no effort to bring these people back (well, alright, Dawn tried it with Joyce, and Willow tried it with Tara) because it has been established that this is wrong, dangerous, evil, etc. It can even result in souls being torn out of heaven (or something like it). That is what forbids the return of the dead. When Angel suggests the rules are broken to resurrect Fred, why doesn’t Spike, after the suffering of Buffy in BtVS season six, tell him what a terrible idea that would be? Instead, he goes along with the idea quite cheerfully. It is, in fact, bizarre that what we have always been told – resurrection is a horrible mistake – is not heard once in the episode. It’s hardly something that Joss would forget. My guess is this: In all of those previous cases the body was dead--as in, totally not functioning in any manner whatsoever--no breathing, no heart beating and also (important since even Spike and Angel meet the first two "requirements" for death): no brain activity--no conciousness. Fred's case appears to be different, at least at first because her body still appears to be functioning on some level. (We are not told if she breathes or if her heart beats. But since we are told at some point that the organs are liquifying I think maybe we can assume that she is not exhibiting those basic signs of "life".) However, Fred's body is exibiting conciousness of some sort--brain activity, even if it is not hers, but Illyria's. I think it is this distinction which essentially forces those who love her to continue to hold out the (possibly misguided) hope that "Fred" can be re-installed in the body. beccaelizabeth's point about re-souling Spike and Angel is an excellent parallel. That is why the point had to be made that Illyria's "possession" of Fred's body is not the same as the demons' possessions for S and A. To sum up: I think it was the spectacle of an antimated body resembling Fred which made the gang continue to hold out hope and therefore required the necessity of pointing out all of the reasons that Fred couldn't come back from the dead, including the annihilated soul business.
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Post by Riff on Apr 11, 2004 19:26:07 GMT -5
Some valid points there, though obviously the annihilated soul business is not necessary; there could have been be all manner of other reasons why resurrection was not an option. And Angel and Spike were aware that Fred’s body was essentially gone. Hence Spike’s comment about how he was burned up in a pillar of fire. I’m sure they were thinking resurrection, rather than re-ensoulment.
This does raise an interesting question, though – where are vampire’s souls? Presumably they exist somewhere. This is a point that has not been addressed by Joss. As you note be with cranky boardness, Angel and Spike have no memories of heaven, hell or anywhere else. In fact, when Angel’s soul returns at end of BtVS season two, he has no memory of past months (at least I think so; hope my memory’s working better than his). Perhaps vampire’s souls exist in some kind of limbo?
Then of course there is the difficult issue of Spike in BtVS seasons five and six. The very fact that he sets out to get a soul implies he has something of one already. Now we have Harmony, the soulless but “good” vampire.
Getting back to Fred and Illyria. Whether Fred stays gone (though to me all the evidence points to the contrary), returns fully, or merges in some way with Illyria, Illyria will have to at least lose a substantial part of its power, I think. As things stand it is quite a lot more than a match for Angel and Spike combined, and it can manipulate time. Probably, it could defeat Buffy. How can such a powerful being be integrated into the FG? Wouldn’t the group dynamics be hopelessly messed up? If Illyria stays as powerful as it is, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is only with us until and including the big fight at end of this season. But then that goes for all the characters – damn.
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Post by Sue on Apr 11, 2004 20:00:57 GMT -5
Some valid points there, though obviously the annihilated soul business is not necessary; there could have been be all manner of other reasons why resurrection was not an option. And Angel and Spike were aware that Fred’s body was essentially gone. Hence Spike’s comment about how he was burned up in a pillar of fire. I’m sure they were thinking resurrection, rather than re-ensoulment. This does raise an interesting question, though – where are vampire’s souls? Presumably they exist somewhere. This is a point that has not been addressed by Joss. As you note be with cranky boardness, Angel and Spike have no memories of heaven, hell or anywhere else. In fact, when Angel’s soul returns at end of BtVS season two, he has no memory of past months (at least I think so; hope my memory’s working better than his). Perhaps vampire’s souls exist in some kind of limbo? Then of course there is the difficult issue of Spike in BtVS seasons five and six. The very fact that he sets out to get a soul implies he has something of one already. Now we have Harmony, the soulless but “good” vampire. Getting back to Fred and Illyria. Whether Fred stays gone (though to me all the evidence points to the contrary), returns fully, or merges in some way with Illyria, Illyria will have to at least lose a substantial part of its power, I think. As things stand it is quite a lot more than a match for Angel and Spike combined, and it can manipulate time. Probably, it could defeat Buffy. How can such a powerful being be integrated into the FG? Wouldn’t the group dynamics be hopelessly messed up? If Illyria stays as powerful as it is, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is only with us until and including the big fight at end of this season. But then that goes for all the characters – damn. Illyria is very powerful--but it (she?) seems a bit bereft without her army of followers. And--not that it effects our discussion one bit, but, have you considered "officially" registering? (You could get cool torches and an avatar. ;D )
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Apr 12, 2004 4:39:29 GMT -5
Then of course there is the difficult issue of Spike in BtVS seasons five and six. The very fact that he sets out to get a soul implies he has something of one already. Not. He perceived a limitation in himself, things he couldnt understand, and he wanted to fix that. He knew he had almost hurt someone he cared about. He needed to fix that too, make it less likely to happen again. No soul needed for either part, unless you believe you cannot love without a soul, and it has been made clear with a bunch of vampires that that isnt true.
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