|
Post by SpringSummers on Jul 15, 2004 11:08:55 GMT -5
Andrew did tell the guys Buffy was happy and in love. Still, this is Andrew, who's not the most reliable narrator. Despite my opinion of the cookie dough speech (kinda lame), I believe Buffy was sincerely trying to explain how she felt while letting Angel down easy. As for Spike, we don't know (and may never know - d*mn you, WB!D) what Joss really had in store for him. If he shanshued, sunshine and grandchildren would no longer be out of the question. It's even possible one of JW's "other ideas" could make these things possible as well. OTOH, Buffy's dalliance (sp?) w/The Immortal suggests she is much more open to new relationships, and we all know who she has to thank for that. Really? Andrew said Buffy was "in love?" I don't remember that, and if I had the stomach to watch the ep again, I would check that out. Of course, you are right, Andrew isn't the most reliable narrator anyhow, so I put much more stock in what Buffy said in Chosen. Yes, I agree that Joss didn't absolutely shut any doors anywhere, but I'm thinking SMG did. I doubt we'll ever see her as Buffy again, regardless of what Joss or the WB or Fox or UPN do or don't do. Also agree that Spike played a large and important part in getting Buffy to open her heart to romantic love again. I sure hate to think a guy who sounds like such a good-time cad, and who can't grow old with her even if he wanted to, made his way into that heart. Someday, I'll rewatch TGIQ and really try to figure out what we're being told. No doubt there are answers in there I didn't see. I've rarely been less engaged in a Jossverse ep. Mostly, it bored me stupid - too stupid to watch for subtleties.
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Jul 15, 2004 11:54:32 GMT -5
Really? Andrew said Buffy was "in love?" I don't remember that, and if I had the stomach to watch the ep again, I would check that out. Of course, you are right, Andrew isn't the most reliable narrator anyhow, so I put much more stock in what Buffy said in Chosen. Yes, I agree that Joss didn't absolutely shut any doors anywhere, but I'm thinking SMG did. I doubt we'll ever see her as Buffy again, regardless of what Joss or the WB or Fox or UPN do or don't do. Also agree that Spike played a large and important part in getting Buffy to open her heart to romantic love again. I sure hate to think a guy who sounds like such a good-time cad, and who can't grow old with her even if he wanted to, made his way into that heart. Someday, I'll rewatch TGIQ and really try to figure out what we're being told. No doubt there are answers in there I didn't see. I've rarely been less engaged in a Jossverse ep. Mostly, it bored me stupid - too stupid to watch for subtleties. Much as I feel cheated out of an on-screen reunion, I don't think I really need one to be content. Mostly what I'm hoping for at this point is just some sign that Buffy and Spike have renewed their connection (the fiery handclasp implies it's strength). RL couples are rarely joined at the hip, and I can deal w/one or the other going solo for whatever adventure we might get to see (mentally crosses fingers). I just want my crumb. As for TGiQ, it will never make my Top Ten list. The A story made me laugh, but was unsatisfying as a set-up with no pay-off. The B story was a little more satisfying in its own right, but also turned out to be a set-up minus any real pay-off. Sunshine and grandkids aside, I'm not too keen on the idea of anyone else enjoying the fruits of Spike's labor. Too much realism in my escapism, I guess.
|
|
|
Post by Cal on Jul 19, 2004 16:26:26 GMT -5
Thanks for another wonderful analysis, Spring! So many wonderful comments already, I have very little to add. I learn so much from these analyses and everyone's comments on them. I liked Riley and was sorry to see him go, but his behaviour towards Buffy at the end of their relationship was very selfish, in my eyes. Season five is my favourite season and you are doing a wonderful job of these analyses, Spring. I'm off to read the next one, now! Thanks, Spring!
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jul 20, 2004 5:29:44 GMT -5
Thanks for another wonderful analysis, Spring! So many wonderful comments already, I have very little to add. I learn so much from these analyses and everyone's comments on them. I liked Riley and was sorry to see him go, but his behaviour towards Buffy at the end of their relationship was very selfish, in my eyes. Season five is my favourite season and you are doing a wonderful job of these analyses, Spring. I'm off to read the next one, now! Thanks, Spring! Thank you, cal, for reading and commenting. I felt sort of torn about Riley's behavior. It was foolish and selfish and immature - but I have some sympathy because he was between a rock and a hard place. He correctly came to believe that he and Buffy had a lopsided relationship in which he had the short end. I didn't blame him for not wanting to live with that. At the same time, Buffy's mom is desperately ill, so it is a terrible time to break up with her, no matter how gently he might try to do it. Riley tells Xander that he is totally in love with Buffy, but she doesn't love him. He hangs in there anyhow, I think due to two things: He really loves her and hates to give up, and he doesn't want to shock and hurt her during a terrible time. But he is young, and he has his own problems and insecurities. So he acts out. He does the wrong thing, looking for the passion elsewhere, and then giving Buffy an ultimatum that she can't possibly meet. But, as imperfectly as he handles it, he does do the right thing in ultimately facing up to it all, and leaving.
|
|
|
Post by LadyLavinia on Sept 1, 2004 15:26:40 GMT -5
I feel that the real problem between Riley and Buffy was a lack of communication between them. I don't know how to explain this, so I'll get back to it, later.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Sept 2, 2004 16:00:34 GMT -5
I feel that the real problem between Riley and Buffy was a lack of communication between them. I don't know how to explain this, so I'll get back to it, later. Hi Lady Lavinia! First, let me say it is always good to here from new readers, so thanks so much for stopping by. And second, yes, do let us know when you've figure out how you want to explain your thoughts on Buffy and Riley's communication problems. They definitely did experience major communication breakdown.
ALSO - to all readers - I know it's been weeks since there's been a new analyses, but work and personal life have overwhelmed me of late. I am taking some time off next week and I hope to work in some S'cubie time. So look for a new analyses soon!
|
|
|
Post by Kerrie on Sept 2, 2004 17:59:30 GMT -5
ALSO - to all readers - I know it's been weeks since there's been a new analyses, but work and personal life have overwhelmed me of late. I am taking some time off next week and I hope to work in some S'cubie time. So look for a new analyses soon! Thanks for the update, Spring. I have been wondering/worrying whether you had lost interest. I am relieved to hear that you will be posting another analysis soon. I am really looking forward to reading the next one. As an aside, I finally got the chance to watch "Bargaining" with the commentary. Marti Noxon implied that JM made a mistake with his acting! I think I have gone into shock. No wonder in the season 5 extras they don't talk about how wonderful an actor JM is and how they immediately knew he was right for the part like they did with everyone else. They (i.e. Marti Noxon and possibly others) are obviously delusional and use bizarre criteria!
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Sept 3, 2004 13:31:04 GMT -5
Thanks for the update, Spring. I have been wondering/worrying whether you had lost interest. I am relieved to hear that you will be posting another analysis soon. I am really looking forward to reading the next one. As an aside, I finally got the chance to watch "Bargaining" with the commentary. Marti Noxon implied that JM made a mistake with his acting! I think I have gone into shock. No wonder in the season 5 extras they don't talk about how wonderful an actor JM is and how they immediately knew he was right for the part like they did with everyone else. They (i.e. Marti Noxon and possibly others) are obviously delusional and use bizarre criteria! Is that the bit where JM supposedly gave away Spike's longing for the bad-old days before his line "looks like fun" while watching the demon gang trashing the Summers' neighborhood? Amazin', innit? All the great things JM did with the character, and she has to pick at one niggling detail. It also bugged me when she and Fury both kept harping on how fabulous Buffy looked for someone who'd just crawled out of her own grave. Geez! I was very disappointed in the commentary for Bargaining. Thankfully, Joss' commentary for OMWF made up for it. I can't get over how different it is in quality and quantity. Thoughtful, articulate and funny.
|
|
|
Post by Onjel on Sept 3, 2004 13:34:14 GMT -5
I feel that the real problem between Riley and Buffy was a lack of communication between them. I don't know how to explain this, so I'll get back to it, later. I feel that Riley needed Buffy to lean on him to feel validated and she felt she needed to be strong for her mother, Dawn and everyone. Part of what gets her in trouble with everyone at various times is her inability to show her vulnerability and pain. Perhaps she sees it as weakness. However, she manages to show both to Angel and Spike during her relationships with them. She just can't seem to show that side to Riley, who so desperately needs it. This sounds all sympathetic, but I was not very empathetic toward Riley when I watched this ep. I felt that he was putting his needs before everyone, and if he really knew Buffy, he would instinctively recognize her need to be strong and in control. In short, I thought he was being a baby.
|
|
|
Post by Kerrie on Sept 3, 2004 14:15:47 GMT -5
Is that the bit where JM supposedly gave away Spike's longing for the bad-old days before his line "looks like fun" while watching the demon gang trashing the Summers' neighborhood? Amazin', innit? All the great things JM did with the character, and she has to pick at one niggling detail. It also bugged me when she and Fury both kept harping on how fabulous Buffy looked for someone who'd just crawled out of her own grave. Geez! I was very disappointed in the commentary for Bargaining. Thankfully, Joss' commentary for OMWF made up for it. I can't get over how different it is in quality and quantity. Thoughtful, articulate and funny. Yep, the "telegraphing" problem was the one that I was thinking of. Until they mentioned it I had never noticed it - just thought that Spike was being Spike. It might be more fun for writers to surprise their audience, but I don't like surprises - it makes me think the character acts out of character which leaves me wondering what is left, if you know what I mean. (I am sorry for being so inarticulate it is 4.30 am here and I am here 'cos I can't sleep.) Overall I agree with you - the "Bargaining" commentary was a little disappointing.
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Sept 3, 2004 14:22:08 GMT -5
Yep, the "telegraphing" problem was the one that I was thinking of. Until they mentioned it I had never noticed it - just thought that Spike was being Spike. It might be more fun for writers to surprise their audience, but I don't like surprises - it makes me think the character acts out of character which leaves me wondering what is left, if you know what I mean. (I am sorry for being so inarticulate it is 4.30 am here and I am here 'cos I can't sleep.) Overall I agree with you - the "Bargaining" commentary was a little disappointing. Kinda funny, in a way. The telegraphing thing is so not an issue for us, but huge for them. Go figure. It just seems so stupid - Spike's not supposed to react to what's going on around him? Puh-lease. Sorry you're having trouble sleeping. Had a bad night myself. Got about 4 hrs (enough to function, but only just). Lucky I don't have to be anywhere today.
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 11, 2004 2:53:03 GMT -5
I love this scene; it always make me think of how far these characters have come since The Initiative. In The Initiative they were on opposite ends of the good-evil spectrum. By Into the Woods, they are each slightly closer to the middle. I just love how Spike oh-so-casually tosses the bottle to Riley, just knowing that Riley wants some one to talk to. They never like each other, but they do understand each other.
On another note, Spike again acts as Watcher in this episode. Giles says that even if he knew about the vamp-hos, he's not sure he would have told Buffy if he were aware. I wonder, though, if it were up to him, what he would have done if he knew Riley were involved.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 11, 2004 6:44:20 GMT -5
I love this scene; it always make me think of how far these characters have come since The Initiative. In The Initiative they were on opposite ends of the good-evil spectrum. By Into the Woods, they are each slightly closer to the middle. I just love how Spike oh-so-casually tosses the bottle to Riley, just knowing that Riley wants some one to talk to. They never like each other, but they do understand each other. Yes - the scene is done just right. Yes, I see it as all leading up to Spike's actual "Watcher" role in Season 6. I never thought to wonder what Giles would have done, but my guess is that he would have talked to Riley first - and made it very clear that Riley could straighten up immediately or leave town - a fatherly reaction, rather than Spike's "boyfriend-wanna-be" reaction.
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Oct 20, 2004 5:20:18 GMT -5
Hi Spring! This was another great analysis! I can't believe I hadn't posted my appreciation until now. My brain is playing tricks on me because I'm certain I posted somewhere about how I, too, *loved* the Spike and Riley scene. Spike was so ... Spike. And Riley was so Riley. And all because Buffy was all-temperature Buffy -- hot & cold to Spike and lukewarm to Riley. (Sorry. You brought up Forrest Gates and that's the only line of his that I can remember.) So I'll just say: Brava! and Thank you! Linda, only a few months late here...
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 20, 2004 7:21:23 GMT -5
Hi Spring! This was another great analysis! I can't believe I hadn't posted my appreciation until now. My brain is playing tricks on me because I'm certain I posted somewhere about how I, too, *loved* the Spike and Riley scene. Spike was so ... Spike. And Riley was so Riley. And all because Buffy was all-temperature Buffy -- hot & cold to Spike and lukewarm to Riley. (Sorry. You brought up Forrest Gates and that's the only line of his that I can remember.) So I'll just say: Brava! and Thank you! Linda, only a few months late here... Hey - I lika the late posts. Forrest - yes, I think there was some kind of "light side" and "dark side" of Riley symbolism going on with Grant and Forrest, but Riley always had such a temporary ("not the long haul guy") feel to me, I didn't get too interested in that.
|
|