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Post by Queen E on Sept 8, 2007 12:49:46 GMT -5
So, you never saw Riley's original narrow-minded view of non-humans and his decision to visit vamp whores due to his own jealousy and insecurity over Buffy's relationship with Angel as a sign that he was "not inclined toward evil in any sense"? If so, it's defining evil in an unrealistically broad sense. And Riley's view was colored by his profession; when presented with an alternate view, he made the right choice (rescuing Oz). It was a prejudice, yes, but he didn't hold onto that prejudice when presented with a moral dilemma. As for the jealousy/cheating thing, well...it may not be "nice" and it may have been wrong on his part, but there are few saints in the real world who never have a negative emotion and never make a mistake. I mean, Angel had 200 years on Riley and gave him an unpardonably smug look when Buffy dragged him into the hall in "The Yoko Factor."
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 8, 2007 13:03:55 GMT -5
So, you never saw Riley's original narrow-minded view of non-humans and his decision to visit vamp whores due to his own jealousy and insecurity over Buffy's relationship with Angel as a sign that he was "not inclined toward evil in any sense"? If so, it's defining evil in an unrealistically broad sense. And Riley's view was colored by his profession; when presented with an alternate view, he made the right choice (rescuing Oz). It was a prejudice, yes, but he didn't hold onto that prejudice when presented with a moral dilemma. As for the jealousy/cheating thing, well...it may not be "nice" and it may have been wrong on his part, but there are few saints in the real world who never have a negative emotion and never make a mistake. I mean, Angel had 200 years on Riley and gave him an unpardonably smug look when Buffy dragged him into the hall in "The Yoko Factor." I did see Riley's . . . less than wholesome . . . aspects more as being about "Riley being human/insecure" than as being about "Riley being inclined to Evil." He was essentially a good-guy, as Onjel points out. In fact we do find out that, though his youth and insecurity has him flirting with Evil (literally!), his natural inclination is not in that direction. He can't sustain it - when push comes to shove, he does the right thing. ONJEL: LOVED your latest post!! Especially liked the description of Joss's exploration of the white, the black, and the gray inbetween.
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Post by Onjel on Sept 8, 2007 21:15:24 GMT -5
So, you never saw Riley's original narrow-minded view of non-humans and his decision to visit vamp whores due to his own jealousy and insecurity over Buffy's relationship with Angel as a sign that he was "not inclined toward evil in any sense"? No. I didn't. Making wrong choices out of insecurity and human emotions isn't evil. It's a fact of life. Evil is something else entirely. Serial killers are evil, IMO. What Riley did, didn't even come close. Consistently using others for one's own gain, to the injury/poverty/death of others is evil. Hanging out with vamp hos isn't. IMO.
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Post by Michelle on Sept 9, 2007 19:47:21 GMT -5
I relate quite a bit to Riley.
I went to a private Catholic school from 1st through high school graduation. The school strictly enforced a uniform. Girls wore a green plaid uniform skirt or hunter green (not kelly, not lime, not seafoam...) pants with a plain white blouse. Boys wore dress shoes, dress pants, a button down shirt buttoned to the top, and a neatly tied tie. Boys' hair could not go past their shirt collar. Chewing gum in school was not allowed, If caught with gum or in the act of any of a myriad of other minor infractions, a student would be given a pink slip. Receive three pink slips, and a student would have to remain after school for what was inexplicably called "jug." In addition to going to mass with our family, students were required to attend mass as a class each week. So, a pretty strict upbringing.
In our senior year, one of my favorite teachers gave our class a little pep talk about life post-graduation. Most of us were college-bound, and he warned us that college was going to be a shock. We would be branching out on our own, and not only away from our parents' watchful eyes for the very first time, but also outside of the protective umbrella/restrictions of a parochial school regiment.
Most college students test their new boundaries when they first experience being away from home. They might skip class, drink too much, do drugs, and basically over indulge in every way imaginable. But students who were like us, my teacher warned, were often most at risk to seriously hurt themselves. We were so used to following rules that when we finally experienced a taste of freedom, we might easily go a little crazy. We had blindly followed the lead of others for so long, we had little to no experience making our own judgment calls. So when students like us are released into the wilds of college, it often spells disaster.
I think you can see where I'm going here. Ryley was raised in idyllic Iowa and presumably had a very happy upbringing. He went to church every Sunday. He was a military man. He looked good in his uniform and was moving up fast through the ranks. He enthusiastically followed rules without any thought of questioning the reason behind them. He not only respected authority, but based on his close relationship with Maggie Walsh, he craved it.
Then he meets Buffy and finds out that nothing was what he thought it was. He is startled that Buffy would question Walsh, but he admires Buffy's unconventional fighting skills and fly by the seat of her pants strategies. He learns that a demon can be a good guy and a good guy, even one he looked up to as a mother figure, can be downright evil. He is through the looking glass.
So he goes a little crazy. It's understandable--he didn't have anyone to warn him like I did. Buffy tries to help him through it but she's going through her own issues: she finds out her sister is not her sister but actually a ball of green energy, and worse, her mother is seriously ill.
And even as early as the first episode of Season 5, "Buffy vs Dracula" we can see that Buffy is starting to outgrow her relationship with Riley. Case in point: They have just made love. Soon, Riley is sound asleep, but Buffy is restless. She creeps out of their bed to chase down vampires. With an almost orgasmic cry of triumph, she stakes a vamp. It is only then that she can climb back into bed and sleep peacefully.
In my mind, neither Buffy nor Riley are evil, nor should either of them take the sole blame for their breakup. They were both growing up and finding themselves. Which I know sounds trite and cliche, but it doesn't make it any less true. I think the break up occurred when as they found themselves, they also found that they were not right for one another.
And I think Riley realized that by the time he returned in the ep "As You Were." He never judged Buffy for her relationship with Spike or for working in a dead end job at a fast food joint. True, he hated Spike and accused him of being The Doctor, but he didn't judge Buffy for being with him.
I believe he still admired her for opening his eyes to the world. I think that was especially evident in Season 7, when he left it up to Buffy to decide to either repair Spike's chip or have it removed. He still hated Spike (referring to him as "ass face") but he knew that Buffy would make the right decision--both for Spike's sake, and for herself. Riley respected Buffy enough to let her make her own decisions, which in some ways puts him a step above Angel, who often made decisions about their relationship without even consulting Buffy. So while Riley made a lot of mistakes (as all humans do) I have pretty fond feelings for him.
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Post by Onjel on Sept 9, 2007 20:42:34 GMT -5
I relate quite a bit to Riley. I went to a private Catholic school from 1st through high school graduation. The school strictly enforced a uniform. Girls wore a green plaid uniform skirt or hunter green (not kelly, not lime, not seafoam...) pants with a plain white blouse. Boys wore dress shoes, dress pants, a button down shirt buttoned to the top, and a neatly tied tie. Boys' hair could not go past their shirt collar. Chewing gum in school was not allowed, If caught with gum or in the act of any of a myriad of other minor infractions, a student would be given a pink slip. Receive three pink slips, and a student would have to remain after school for what was inexplicably called "jug." In addition to going to mass with our family, students were required to attend mass as a class each week. So, a pretty strict upbringing. In our senior year, one of my favorite teachers gave our class a little pep talk about life post-graduation. Most of us were college-bound, and he warned us that college was going to be a shock. We would be branching out on our own, and not only away from our parents' watchful eyes for the very first time, but also outside of the protective umbrella/restrictions of a parochial school regiment. Most college students test their new boundaries when they first experience being away from home. They might skip class, drink too much, do drugs, and basically over indulge in every way imaginable. But students who were like us, my teacher warned, were often most at risk to seriously hurt themselves. We were so used to following rules that when we finally experienced a taste of freedom, we might easily go a little crazy. We had blindly followed the lead of others for so long, we had little to no experience making our own judgment calls. So when students like us are released into the wilds of college, it often spells disaster. I think you can see where I'm going here. Ryley was raised in idyllic Iowa and presumably had a very happy upbringing. He went to church every Sunday. He was a military man. He looked good in his uniform and was moving up fast through the ranks. He enthusiastically followed rules without any thought of questioning the reason behind them. He not only respected authority, but based on his close relationship with Maggie Walsh, he craved it. Then he meets Buffy and finds out that nothing was what he thought it was. He is startled that Buffy would question Walsh, but he admires Buffy's unconventional fighting skills and fly by the seat of her pants strategies. He learns that a demon can be a good guy and a good guy, even one he looked up to as a mother figure, can be downright evil. He is through the looking glass. So he goes a little crazy. It's understandable--he didn't have anyone to warn him like I did. Buffy tries to help him through it but she's going through her own issues: she finds out her sister is not her sister but actually a ball of green energy, and worse, her mother is seriously ill. And even as early as the first episode of Season 5, "Buffy vs Dracula" we can see that Buffy is starting to outgrow her relationship with Riley. Case in point: They have just made love. Soon, Riley is sound asleep, but Buffy is restless. She creeps out of their bed to chase down vampires. With an almost orgasmic cry of triumph, she stakes a vamp. It is only then that she can climb back into bed and sleep peacefully. In my mind, neither Buffy nor Riley are evil, nor should either of them take the sole blame for their breakup. They were both growing up and finding themselves. Which I know sounds trite and cliche, but it doesn't make it any less true. I think the break up occurred when as they found themselves, they also found that they were not right for one another. And I think Riley realized that by the time he returned in the ep "As You Were." He never judged Buffy for her relationship with Spike or for working in a dead end job at a fast food joint. True, he hated Spike and accused him of being The Doctor, but he didn't judge Buffy for being with him. I believe he still admired her for opening his eyes to the world. I think that was especially evident in Season 7, when he left it up to Buffy to decide to either repair Spike's chip or have it removed. He still hated Spike (referring to him as "ass face") but he knew that Buffy would make the right decision--both for Spike's sake, and for herself. Riley respected Buffy enough to let her make her own decisions, which in some ways puts him a step above Angel, who often made decisions about their relationship without even consulting Buffy. So while Riley made a lot of mistakes (as all humans do) I have pretty fond feelings for him. I couldn't agree more.
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Post by Shan on Sept 10, 2007 16:10:38 GMT -5
In my mind, neither Buffy nor Riley are evil, nor should either of them take the sole blame for their breakup. They were both growing up and finding themselves. Which I know sounds trite and cliche, but it doesn't make it any less true. I think the break up occurred when as they found themselves, they also found that they were not right for one another. I couldn't agree more. Me, I think the most "not right for one another" part was having one party (doesn't matter what gender at all) who needs to be needed paired with another party who needs to be independent. There's going to be a conflict, especially if they're not mature enough to work through it. I think at the stages Buffy and Riley were at, they couldn't even have found a way to successfully combine their own personality differences, nevermind adding superpowers into the mix.
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Post by Onjel on Sept 11, 2007 20:55:30 GMT -5
Me, I think the most "not right for one another" part was having one party (doesn't matter what gender at all) who needs to be needed paired with another party who needs to be independent. There's going to be a conflict, especially if they're not mature enough to work through it. I think at the stages Buffy and Riley were at, they couldn't even have found a way to successfully combine their own personality differences, nevermind adding superpowers into the mix. Makes perfect sense to me. This fits with my point. My point was that neither of them was "the bad guy" in this whole break-up scenario and that no one was suggesting that Riley was totally at fault (in a misandrist, or any other way) or that Buffy was totally at fault. When people aren't right for each other they are better off apart and sometimes they do part (ugly, good whatever) and sometimes they don't. It's when they don't that things get truly icky, IMO, so it not only worked out for the story and Joss' visionary story-telling, but for the characters themselves.
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Post by fish1941 on Dec 14, 2008 14:15:33 GMT -5
I must admit that I found the above passage from the "Into the Woods" a little disturbing . . . and rather sexist. Why is it when we discuss feminism, women are portrayed as being superior to men? I'm a woman and quite frankly, I don't think that genders can be so easily labeled as they were in the above passage.
Riley was always appreciate of Buffy's strength. He just wasn't appreciative of Buffy treating him like fine china after his operation in "Out of My Mind". To make matters worse, he failed to discuss the matter with Buffy.
The problem is that Buffy's dark side never bothered Riley. He understood probably better than she did, as was shown in the episode, "The Replacement":
Buffy thought that Riley was the Normal Joe that she wanted or needed. Riley was no more normal than any other male in her life.
As for Riley, I think that the reason he could not effectively reveal all of his true feelings for Buffy was that she was not the type of woman that he could truly reveal all of himself to. If she was, he would have told her how he felt being shut out long before it was too late.
They simply were not made for each other.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 15, 2008 18:56:50 GMT -5
I must admit that I found the above passage from the "Into the Woods" a little disturbing . . . and rather sexist. Why is it when we discuss feminism, women are portrayed as being superior to men? I'm a woman and quite frankly, I don't think that genders can be so easily labeled as they were in the above passage. Yes, you said this before. You think what I wrote is sexist, reflects a shallow outlook on gender relations, and amounts to unfair labeling. As I said before, you have completely misunderstood me. But I've already explained myself to the best of my ability in the review itself, so I've got nothing to add. I disagree with all aspects of your assessment of Buffy and Riley's relationship, except for your very true last sentence. Thanks for taking the time to read and comment on my reviews.
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Post by fish1941 on Feb 8, 2009 23:27:01 GMT -5
Thanks for not being that concise in your response.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 11, 2009 20:18:06 GMT -5
Thanks for not being that concise in your response. That is possibly the strangest thing I've ever been thanked for, but heck - I accept all gratitude. You're welcome, and anytime!
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Post by William B on Aug 18, 2010 3:25:48 GMT -5
Hey Spring! I do so inconsistently but it's fun to pop in from time to time. I recently read an interesting but, I think, wrongheaded review of Into the Woods at the so-called "Cultural Catchup Project," where a first-time viewer/reviewer is watching BtVS (and AtS along with it). The reviewer, Myles, criticized the episode for what he thought was Marti Noxon romanticizing Buffy/Riley at the episode's end, with Xander's big speech and then Buffy's run for the 'copter. This frustrated me a bit and I reread your analysis of the episode for another take. And it just made me remember how clear-eyed your take on this episode is. This is an important episode and very underrated IMO, and you capture the complexity of the motivations for Spike, Riley, Xander and Buffy very well. I always mean to come and gab about these analyses and how much they've helped shape my view of the show, and I seldom do, so I thought this was a great opportunity! I do hope that you'll get to season six post-After Life, because it's my favourite year and a season that frequently gets misinterpreted, and you seem to have your finger on the pulse of the show (including the characters who don't have heartbeats).
The general assumption is still prevalent, from the direction/editing, that we are supposed to take Xander as the voice of truth, and be devastated that Buffy doesn't catch up to the helicopter. But the show is crafty: we know, ultimately, that Buffy wants to catch Riley on some level, and it makes sense, because she is not yet (and won't be until she's back from the dead) ready to face up to the fact that she CAN'T love Riley--that she's not a normal girl. Maybe some day in the future she could have a "normal relationship," but not while that's explicitly the thing she's looking for. But of course Buffy doesn't get that yet, and blames herself. It's sad but it's the way things go.
And I really like the way you bring together Riley's story with Buffy's. It's hard to have sympathy for someone who goes and gets suckjobs from vamps while his girlfriend's mother is dying. But ultimately Riley sees that Buffy is more passionate, more in love with Spike than she is with him, and needs to find a way to deal with that. He did the wrong thing, but it's understandable--and much, much more understandable in light of the fact that Buffy/Spike really is the key romantic relationship for Buffy at this point in the series, and not Riley. Riley's inability to handle Buffy's strength and his inability to handle her emotional distance and his inability to handle her passion for Spike all blend together, so it's difficult to say where one starts and the other ones begin and end.
It's interesting how much this episode leads into Triangle--you point out here how the Willow/Xander/Anya triangle is highlighted here as a contrast to Buffy/Spike/Riley, and Riley's return in AYW heralds the end of Xander & Anya as well as Xander and Buffy, in their own ways, helping to restore Willow and Spike's souls (respectively) in Grave. Xander & Willow is not, by season 5/6, sexual, like Buffy & Spike (though there was the fluke years back), but there's some of the same intuitive understanding between them that Buffy and Spike have, as opposed to the genuine but somewhat more forced affection between Buffy & Riley, and Xander & Anya. (Though X&A were ultimately more successful than B&R, they had some of the same problems.)
Sorry for the shapelessness of the ramble. Incidentally, would you mind if I quoted or referred to your analyses in my own reviews (probably written for livejournal)--with reference to you, of course!
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 18, 2010 20:33:51 GMT -5
Hey Spring! I do so inconsistently but it's fun to pop in from time to time. It's fun to hear from you also! Thanks for stopping in again. I hope I can get going again also. It's been extremely hard to get back to, due to personal life challenges, but I've never forgotten them or lost interest. Yes, this reminds me of analyses of "Beer Bad" that I've read before, that claim that the episode is Joss lecturing us about the evils of Beer. So literal, and so "not Joss." Yes, well said. Whether you're talking about Buffy or Xander or Riley or Anya, the episode isn't "passing any judgments." The characters are all young and growing and dealing with life's complexities imperfectly - but ultimately with good intentions and good hearts. I definitely agree that Marti isn't lecturing us on the wonderfulness of the Riley/Buffy love. Overall, I think the message is that there were some plusses, and the Riley relationship was one that gave Buffy some good things, and it was a necessary transitional relationship - but, as Spike says, it wasn't meant for "the long haul," for either Buffy or Riley. One thing that is obvious to me, in Triangle, is how . . . superficially, I guess is the word, with a shot of stereotypically, Buffy mourns the loss of Riley. She seems to be just going through the motions, and I think this presentation is quite deliberate. You are welcome to do that - come back and provide a link if you get the chance - would love to read your take on the eps.
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Post by William B on Aug 25, 2010 16:40:30 GMT -5
Absolutely. I'm very sorry about your personal life challenges. And I don't anticipate interest waning. It's a tribute both to the show itself and to your reviews that they remain relevant nearly a decade after the show's gone off the air. Yeah. I think it's not always easy to see what Joss is doing--I've spent years trying to decipher what, if anything, is going on in "Wrecked" with Willow's junkie-ness, and have still not given up on making sense of it!--but I think it's a mistake to assume we're being lectured to. And you do such a good job of pointing out the way the episode, in the big picture, shows how things are not as simple as they seem--Joyce is NOT all better, Xander and Anya are NOT perfectly through everything at the episode's end, etc. Yes! Nothing to add. Yeah, I think that's a good observation. She remembers how she felt after Angel left. And if she doesn't feel devastated when Riley leaves, that just proves to her that she never opened herself up to him, that Xander was right that she was treating him as a convenience. By Checkpoint she's already over moping, though I think she still does legitimately miss the good things Riley provided. Sure! My hugely insightful friend Maggie is writing up notes on each episode here--most recently she's posted "The Witch": 2maggie2.livejournal.com/23007.htmlWhat's happening is that right now her brother is making notes on the episodes as well. But in a few weeks (probably around "Angel", the episode not the show) he's going to tap out, and I'll be adding additional notes in the body under the handle "Local-Max" (which is also what I comment under). It's a sweet deal for me, since I think Maggie gets to do all the legwork of identifying the episode's primary themes, and I get to expand on what's already there.
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Post by baunger1 on Jul 22, 2012 3:07:15 GMT -5
Hi Spring!
Just rewatched this episode and reread your analysis, and as usual, you've got me thinking.
This time around, I was struck by the fact that, early in the episode, we see Riley leaving Buffy post-sex to go to the suck-house. The relationship has left him unsatisfied, and he seeks satisfaction outside their relationship in the form of someone who "needs" him in a way Buffy doesn't. And the season itself, in Buffy v. Dracula, begins with Buffy leaving Riley post-sex to seek the satisfaction of killing vampires, that is, her pull towards her own darkness. So it really comes full circle in terms of their mutual inability to fulfill each other's needs.
Also, I noticed that when Spike and Buffy are entering the suck house, there are two posters prominently displayed on the wall outside reading "Mentor." Fascinating, as they are certainly in the early stages of mentoring each other. Spike gives her a lesson here, and he does it by taking her inside a place that's very dark and disturbing. Spike says that she "needs to see" what's going on with Riley, and he's right, although he's doing it at this point for the wrong reasons. But of course, she does need to see the glaring problem in her relationship that she's so long ignored. I think that in a sense, she has idealized Riley as much as she ever did Angel, only in a slightly different way. She idealized him as being solid and dependable and utterly there for her, without needs of his own. Spike exposes that lie, and later, Xander will articulate precisely the same thing. But Spike gets a lesson, too -- exposing Riley in this way doesn't make Buffy see him as the hero. He'll have to develop a moral compass, to reach a point where his intent is actually to help, and he's not motivated by selfishness and self-interest, before he can become her champion.
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