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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 6, 2007 19:43:01 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I see no evidence of misandry in Spring's analysis. My take on the whole "the breakup was inevitable" is that Buffy really doesn't want what is commonly thought of as normal. Deep down she wants and needs a relationship that is geared for her and her alone; not someone else's idea of what her relationship or who her chosen partner should be. Willow went for it with Tara. It's time Buffy realized that it's okay to go for what she wants, however "abnormal" it may be. She doesn't get there in this episode, but I think the seed has been planted that "normal" isn't where it's at for her. "Normal" isn't where it's at for any of the Scoobies. It's one of the reasons I found myself so irritated at the gang's refusal to accept Spike (whether he be temporary or permanent) as a good counterpart to Buffy and a good friend/lover/partner, whatever, for her. Just babbling, and rather inchoherent at the moment, but that's what came to mind this morning. Maybe more later when I can formulate my thoughts better. Interesting thoughts - I also felt that basically, right or wrong, and despite her claims to the contrary, Buffy had an underlying desire for a relationship that was not a "normal guy" relationship.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 6, 2007 19:48:26 GMT -5
Interesting discussion! My take on the whole Riley thing was that he believed Buffy didn't really, truly love/need him on the same emotional level that he loved her. (He even told Xander this - and I believe he is partially right.) I don't mean needed him in the sense of needing to be protected, but needed him in an emotional way, although I get the sense that she desperately wanted to need him. Riley also felt that he didn't measure up to Angel - but that sometimes happens to rebound guys. They will compare themselves to former lover(s). This made him act insecure around Buffy at times, and second guess her reactions to him. Buffy was not in a place in her life to trust another man as completely as she should have in order for their love to be whole. I know a lot of fans thought that Riley's reaction to Buffy not calling her when her mom fell ill was whining on his part, but in a serious/loving relationship, isn't that what most of us would have done - called our significant other to be there for support? I know I would've felt hurt if someone I loved had totally left me out of the loop in that situation. But that's just me - and that was Riley. Agree with all you say here - I definitely did understand why Riley felt hurt about Buffy not turning to him in crisis. But being that she was in crisis, it definitely wasn't the time for him to burden her with talk about his emotional needs. This was the part I did not like - Riley's choice on how to react to his hurt. But he was young, too. Like Buffy (like all the characters) he made his share of mistakes. But he eventually figured things out correctly, I thought, and he did the right thing, leaving as he did. Yes, that's a good way to put it - she realized that she was experiencing a very real loss, but that didn't fix the underlying issue of Buffy not feeling that level of passion that Riley felt for her.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 6, 2007 19:55:20 GMT -5
I do disagree with Spring's assertion here, that "needing to be needed" is a characteristic of men, as opposed to (or more than) women. I find Spring's assertions problematic, but I wouldn't go so far as to call them misandry. While there are differences between the sexes, this is not one of them. In my experience, I have witnessed just as many needy men as needy women, and just as many needing to be needed men as women. You make a good point with the "in my experience." Your experience, plainly, has been different from mine. But we can each speak only to our own experience, and it's what we must do to share honest opinions with each other. That is why I was clear in my analysis (as you are here) that I was expressing my subjective opinion, based on my experiences . . . which I thought was exactly what the episode was meant to bring out. I mean - it was meant to engender this sort of discussion. I agree that relationships are about getting your needs filled, and filling the needs of others. But that is different than being "needy," and being attracted to neediness - at least the way I meant it, in the review. ETA: I'm talking about the difference between being someone's friend and confidant and partner through thick and thin, and being someone's white knight/hero . . . I definitely do think of Riley as very three dimensional. The character was a great addition to the show - he fit in perfectly with that part of the story, and was a well-developed character. The thing I liked best about Riley was the courage he showed in doing the right thing FOR HIMSELF, and leaving despite how much it hurt him to do so.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 6, 2007 20:02:34 GMT -5
Interesting discussion! My take on the whole Riley thing was that he believed Buffy didn't really, truly love/need him on the same emotional level that he loved her. (He even told Xander this - and I believe he is partially right.) I don't mean needed him in the sense of needing to be protected, but needed him in an emotional way, although I get the sense that she desperately wanted to need him. Riley also felt that he didn't measure up to Angel - but that sometimes happens to rebound guys. They will compare themselves to former lover(s). This made him act insecure around Buffy at times, and second guess her reactions to him. Buffy was not in a place in her life to trust another man as completely as she should have in order for their love to be whole. I know a lot of fans thought that Riley's reaction to Buffy not calling her when her mom fell ill was whining on his part, but in a serious/loving relationship, isn't that what most of us would have done - called our significant other to be there for support? I know I would've felt hurt if someone I loved had totally left me out of the loop in that situation. But that's just me - and that was Riley. And like Buffy told Riley - that was her, and if he couldn't love the her that she was, then it wasn't going to work. And it didn't work in the end. If Buffy would've been able to stop Riley from leaving, they might have been able to work it out, because it did seem to me that she realized what she was losing - but sometimes you just can't force yourself to feel what you think it is you should feel. Eetah. I personally identify more with Riley in their break up, but it's true that neither of them handled the situation perfectly. The biggest problem I have with Buffy in this is her whole cluelessness (either feigned or genuine) that she and Riley were even having problems that needed to be discussed. And no, Joyce's illness doesn't excuse that much lack of awareness, in my book. I think of Buffy's blindness regarding Riley as being more . . . willful than feigned. There was a level at which she wanted so badly to somehow have a normal relationship, that she fooled herself; let herself see what she wanted to see, to try to keep the relationship whole and not face some of the things she didn't want to face. I don't think Joyce's illness had anything to do with it; Buffy's lack of clear understanding of the imbalance in her and Riley's relationship started before Joyce's illness, IMO. I think she was nursing a hurting heart, from the whole Angel thing, and just unable to be a girl who could give love at the level one would expect, in a romantic relationship. She wanted to be that girl; she tried to be that girl; but she couldn't be that girl. I see it as a commonplace, believable, and to me, extremely forgiveable thing in a young person who is basically on the rebound, coming off the first major hurt and disappointment in love.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 6, 2007 20:06:16 GMT -5
Interesting discussion! My take on the whole Riley thing was that he believed Buffy didn't really, truly love/need him on the same emotional level that he loved her. (He even told Xander this - and I believe he is partially right.) **nods** I see it this way too. That, in the end, Buffy couldn't love Riley the way he wanted to be loved by her. And, to some extent, Riley couldn't love Buffy in the way she wanted to be loved by him. It almost makes me think of the novel and movie "Ordinary People", where the therapist talks to the kid about the difference between his mother not loving him and his mother not loving him the way he wants his mother to love him. (Granted, that is a much harder situation to deal with, considering the extra issues around a mother and child relationship.) Riley, I think, wanted to be an equal partner in the slaying/demon hunting thing. Which is an understandable desire and viewpoint. However, he was never going to be a supernatural slayer, and Buffy was never going to not remember that. Buffy, I think, wanted (or thought she wanted, actually, which is a whole 'nother thing) a boyfriend who would fit with her desire to "live a normal life". And she also has a justifiable worry about his safety once he was no longer super-strong guy. She's never going to be able to turn that off, because she is called to help protect people and therefore, that is also an understandable desire and viewpoint. But Riley has his own feelings about his mission to help people and he's never going to forget that either. Yes. I think he wanted her to turn to him more, include him more, ask him to do more for her. Not necessarily strong-arm stuff, but just . . . turn to him more. But Buffy has a deep need to accomplish things, take care of the monster, be the solver of things. So it's not a natural action on her part to go to him for everything. She probably doesn't think of herself that way, but she is simply used to leading the charge into action. **nods** I would have felt hurt, but would have put that aside. But then again, at the stage I am in life now, I also have more experience than Riley to know why these kind of things happen. In crisis, many folks revert to a . . . like a hunker down in the "core family" mode. I've seen it happen at funerals or in times of serious illness. The siblings or family meld together and sometimes spouses (even ones who've been part of the family for years or decades) can get pushed out of some decision making or conversations. Not out of a desire to hurt or exclude, but because they're reacting instinctively to clump together. (This doesn't always happen, but I've see it plenty.) And for Buffy? Dawn and her mom and, to an only slightly lesser degree, Giles and the scoobies, are her core family. **nods** True, honest, sometimes painful communication is likely what would have been needed. And even then, no guarantees. Because, as you point out, sometimes there may be love but not the way that is needed to make this work. And you can't force that or make it happen just 'cuz you want it to. Agree with all your points. Especially like the comparison to the Ordinary-People thing. What a great discussion - I've loved reading everyone's thoughts on this topic.
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Post by Karen on Sept 6, 2007 20:12:21 GMT -5
Why would Riley have such a big problem with Buffy being stronger than him in Season 5 and not in Season 4? I noticed that he seemed a bit taken aback when she first proved that she was stronger in some S4 episode. But he seemed to have eventually accepted it. In addition to all that Spring and Diane said, remember, Riley stopped being fed the superpower supplements/drugs when Professor Walsh died and he went AWoL. Up until then, he felt that he and Buffy were pretty close in strength so the extent of her strength was easier for him to ignore. Once he was again just a normal guy in good fighting shape, it became impossible for him to overlook Buffy's super power. I still agree with what you said and think that Diane and Spring summed all our positions up perfectly. ;D Losing his strength, and finding out about Angel and Buffy really spun Riley around. He never did feel he measured up after that. He really took to heart what Spike said to him - that Buffy needs a little demon in her man. So, while I think he did have issues with Buffy being stronger, I think he had more of an issue with being weaker than he had been, if that makes any sense.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 6, 2007 20:24:31 GMT -5
In addition to all that Spring and Diane said, remember, Riley stopped being fed the superpower supplements/drugs when Professor Walsh died and he went AWoL. Up until then, he felt that he and Buffy were pretty close in strength so the extent of her strength was easier for him to ignore. Once he was again just a normal guy in good fighting shape, it became impossible for him to overlook Buffy's super power. I still agree with what you said and think that Diane and Spring summed all our positions up perfectly. ;D Losing his strength, and finding out about Angel and Buffy really spun Riley around. He never did feel he measured up after that. He really took to heart what Spike said to him - that Buffy needs a little demon in her man. So, while I think he did have issues with Buffy being stronger than him, I think he had more of an issue with being weaker than her, if that makes any sense. Yes, it makes sense, and I agree - Riley saw the strength imbalance, IMO, as "not OK." But I think that he saw it more as a failing in him, than as "something wrong with Buffy." If he had had to choose between making Buffy weaker, or making himself stronger, I think he would have chosen the latter. He says as much, when he tells Buffy that he doesn't want just "Buffy-Buffy" but wants "Slayer Buffy" as well. He loves all of Buffy. He doesn't wish Buffy was weaker. But then we see how much he hates that he is getting weaker after no longer taking the meds, and how he does that whole "vamp-whore" thing . . . it all seems directed at himself, at trying to figure out how HE can change, to be as strong as Buffy. He wishes he was stronger. But he eventually figures out that he has to find someone who can love him for exactly who he is - and even more importantly, that he has to accept himself as he is.
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Post by Karen on Sept 6, 2007 22:17:01 GMT -5
Losing his strength, and finding out about Angel and Buffy really spun Riley around. He never did feel he measured up after that. He really took to heart what Spike said to him - that Buffy needs a little demon in her man. So, while I think he did have issues with Buffy being stronger than him, I think he had more of an issue with being weaker than her, if that makes any sense. Yes, it makes sense, and I agree - Riley saw the strength imbalance, IMO, as "not OK." But I think that he saw it more as a failing in him, than as "something wrong with Buffy." I agree - and I edited my post from his issue 'being weaker than her' to 'being weaker than he had been'. You're just too quick! Don't we all?
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Post by Karen on Sept 6, 2007 22:28:43 GMT -5
Interesting discussion! My take on the whole Riley thing was that he believed Buffy didn't really, truly love/need him on the same emotional level that he loved her. (He even told Xander this - and I believe he is partially right.) **nods** I see it this way too. That, in the end, Buffy couldn't love Riley the way he wanted to be loved by her. And, to some extent, Riley couldn't love Buffy in the way she wanted to be loved by him. It almost makes me think of the novel and movie "Ordinary People", where the therapist talks to the kid about the difference between his mother not loving him and his mother not loving him the way he wants his mother to love him. (Granted, that is a much harder situation to deal with, considering the extra issues around a mother and child relationship.) Riley, I think, wanted to be an equal partner in the slaying/demon hunting thing. Which is an understandable desire and viewpoint. However, he was never going to be a supernatural slayer, and Buffy was never going to not remember that. Buffy, I think, wanted (or thought she wanted, actually, which is a whole 'nother thing) a boyfriend who would fit with her desire to "live a normal life". And she also has a justifiable worry about his safety once he was no longer super-strong guy. She's never going to be able to turn that off, because she is called to help protect people and therefore, that is also an understandable desire and viewpoint. But Riley has his own feelings about his mission to help people and he's never going to forget that either. Good point about their different missions not exactly jiving. Buffy always did struggle with involving the 'normal' people in her life with the dangerous part of hers. Understandedly so, too. Oh, yeah. She was very self-centered that way. I think she learned she had to be to survive. She also needed to learn to trust others and ask for their help, too. Yeah - Riley didn't deal with the hurt very well. Plus, I wonder if he felt guilty about being with Faith in Buffy, and maybe confused that he didn't realize it wasn't Buffy. I've seen that, too. In my own experience, my ex (before he was the ex) sat with his sisters during his dad's funeral, and kind of forgot I was even there. I sat with a friend a few rows back. If it had been 20 years earlier, I would've felt embarassed and hurt.
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Post by fish1941 on Sept 6, 2007 22:37:49 GMT -5
Perhaps he feels this way, because Buffy seemed bent upon treating him like a piece of china. Why did she do that? If she had so much trouble in allowing "normal people" assist her in slayer duties, why on earth would she insist that the Scoobies accompany Riley on a demon hunt in "Fool For Love"? Did she honestly think that he - a more experienced demon hunter - actually needed Xander, Willow and Anya's help?
"Normal" wasn't for Riley either. Why else would he become a demon hunter, instead of a regular Army officer? Buffy could not see that? Hmmm . . . I guess not.
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Post by Onjel on Sept 7, 2007 7:19:08 GMT -5
Perhaps he feels this way, because Buffy seemed bent upon treating him like a piece of china. Why did she do that? If she had so much trouble in allowing "normal people" assist her in slayer duties, why on earth would she insist that the Scoobies accompany Riley on a demon hunt in "Fool For Love"? Did she honestly think that he - a more experienced demon hunter - actually needed Xander, Willow and Anya's help? "Normal" wasn't for Riley either. Why else would he become a demon hunter, instead of a regular Army officer? Buffy could not see that? Hmmm . . . I guess not. Actually, what I was getting at had nothing whatsoever to do with Riley, so your defense of him, while admirable and well-put (I think he was a great addition to the show and as Spring says, showed great courage leaving for himself as he did), is out of place with respect to my thoughts about Buffy's feelings and conflicting desires of normal vs. not normal, whatever those two things really mean. But, while we're on the subject, I actually think Riley didn't "want" a relationship that was "skirting the boundaries" of social acceptance. Look who he ended up marrying. Sam and he were as conventionally acceptable as it is possible to get in this century. Male/female, traditional union, both human and both with the same career interests, training and goals. I think his "choice" of becoming a demon hunter instead of a normal army officer wasn't really a choice. I think he was recruited by a charismatic older mentor figure and was convinced that what he was doing was for the good of mankind/humanity. What Riley needed and wanted was to feel that he was making a difference. Buffy knew she made a difference on a nightly basis. And, what, she stopped how many apocalypses by the time Riley left? She really didn't need to know she was making a difference on the same level as Riley. Buffy can never lead a "normal" life at this point in the series. First of all, there's that possible really short shelf life as she puts it. Second, there's that whole preternatural strength thing, and let's not forget, she had to drop out of the college scene, and didn't even have a paying job. How normal is that in the world in which she lives and her friends live? Protestations to the contrary, Buffy ultimately wasn't drawn to "normal". Just look at her dating history. Angel? Not exactly Joe next door neighbor. What I'm trying to get at, is that this discussion wasn't meant to rip Riley apart (I think I can speak for all here when I say that), but to analyze and discuss Buffy and the whole Riley relationship disintegration and the reasons behind it.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 7, 2007 7:54:37 GMT -5
Yes, it makes sense, and I agree - Riley saw the strength imbalance, IMO, as "not OK." But I think that he saw it more as a failing in him, than as "something wrong with Buffy." I agree - and I edited my post from his issue 'being weaker than her' to 'being weaker than he had been'. You're just too quick! Don't we all? Yep - it's what the "growing up" in the Jossverse (as a reflection of the real world) was all about - the characters coming to know and accept themselves (and those around them). They all had their stops and starts and backpedalling, but all of them seemed headed in the right direction, ultimately.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 7, 2007 8:06:09 GMT -5
Perhaps he feels this way, because Buffy seemed bent upon treating him like a piece of china. Why did she do that? If she had so much trouble in allowing "normal people" assist her in slayer duties, why on earth would she insist that the Scoobies accompany Riley on a demon hunt in "Fool For Love"? Did she honestly think that he - a more experienced demon hunter - actually needed Xander, Willow and Anya's help? "Normal" wasn't for Riley either. Why else would he become a demon hunter, instead of a regular Army officer? Buffy could not see that? Hmmm . . . I guess not. Actually, what I was getting at had nothing whatsoever to do with Riley, so your defense of him, while admirable and well-put (I think he was a great addition to the show and as Spring says, showed great courage leaving for himself as he did), is out of place with respect to my thoughts about Buffy's feelings and conflicting desires of normal vs. not normal, whatever those two things really mean. But, while we're on the subject, I actually think Riley didn't "want" a relationship that was "skirting the boundaries" of social acceptance. Look who he ended up marrying. Sam and he were as conventionally acceptable as it is possible to get in this century. Male/female, traditional union, both human and both with the same career interests, training and goals. I think his "choice" of becoming a demon hunter instead of a normal army officer wasn't really a choice. I think he was recruited by a charismatic older mentor figure and was convinced that what he was doing was for the good of mankind/humanity. What Riley needed and wanted was to feel that he was making a difference. Buffy knew she made a difference on a nightly basis. And, what, she stopped how many apocalypses by the time Riley left? She really didn't need to know she was making a difference on the same level as Riley. Buffy can never lead a "normal" life at this point in the series. First of all, there's that possible really short shelf life as she puts it. Second, there's that whole preternatural strength thing, and let's not forget, she had to drop out of the college scene, and didn't even have a paying job. How normal is that in the world in which she lives and her friends live? Protestations to the contrary, Buffy ultimately wasn't drawn to "normal". Just look at her dating history. Angel? Not exactly Joe next door neighbor. What I'm trying to get at, is that this discussion wasn't meant to rip Riley apart (I think I can speak for all here when I say that), but to analyze and discuss Buffy and the whole Riley relationship disintegration and the reasons behind it. Agree with all you say, here . . . I think fish is defending Riley against the belief that the break up was all his fault and due completely to his weaknesses, and attacking Buffy so as to attack the belief that Buffy was faultless throughout.But neither the analysis, nor anyone involved in the subsequent discussion in this thread, has expressed either belief. So that makes meaningful response to the comments ultimately impossible, as you point out here, in mentioning the "out of place." Shadow-boxing is a solo activity.
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Post by Onjel on Sept 7, 2007 11:49:14 GMT -5
Actually, what I was getting at had nothing whatsoever to do with Riley, so your defense of him, while admirable and well-put (I think he was a great addition to the show and as Spring says, showed great courage leaving for himself as he did), is out of place with respect to my thoughts about Buffy's feelings and conflicting desires of normal vs. not normal, whatever those two things really mean. But, while we're on the subject, I actually think Riley didn't "want" a relationship that was "skirting the boundaries" of social acceptance. Look who he ended up marrying. Sam and he were as conventionally acceptable as it is possible to get in this century. Male/female, traditional union, both human and both with the same career interests, training and goals. I think his "choice" of becoming a demon hunter instead of a normal army officer wasn't really a choice. I think he was recruited by a charismatic older mentor figure and was convinced that what he was doing was for the good of mankind/humanity. What Riley needed and wanted was to feel that he was making a difference. Buffy knew she made a difference on a nightly basis. And, what, she stopped how many apocalypses by the time Riley left? She really didn't need to know she was making a difference on the same level as Riley. Buffy can never lead a "normal" life at this point in the series. First of all, there's that possible really short shelf life as she puts it. Second, there's that whole preternatural strength thing, and let's not forget, she had to drop out of the college scene, and didn't even have a paying job. How normal is that in the world in which she lives and her friends live? Protestations to the contrary, Buffy ultimately wasn't drawn to "normal". Just look at her dating history. Angel? Not exactly Joe next door neighbor. What I'm trying to get at, is that this discussion wasn't meant to rip Riley apart (I think I can speak for all here when I say that), but to analyze and discuss Buffy and the whole Riley relationship disintegration and the reasons behind it. Agree with all you say, here . . . I think fish is defending Riley against the belief that the break up was all his fault and due completely to his weaknesses, and attacking Buffy so as to attack the belief that Buffy was faultless throughout.But neither the analysis, nor anyone involved in the subsequent discussion in this thread, has expressed either belief. So that makes meaningful response to the comments ultimately impossible, as you point out here, in mentioning the "out of place." Shadow-boxing is a solo activity. Exactly. Neither party was blameless in this situation and ultimately, did exactly what was best for them at the time. I was pondering this while in Court today. Moving the discussion from the individuals to the story. I've always felt that Joss explored the good vs evil theme and the gray areas between the two. Part of growing up is being presented with opportunity to make questionable moral decisions. One can take the path of least resistance, which may involve giving in to the basest of impulses; one can struggle to attain the higher good; and one can exist somewhere in the middle drifting toward and away from either extreme as situations present. Buffy dating Riley, who is ultimately a good guy and not inclined toward evil in any sense that I ever saw, presents no moral quandary. There is no "taking a walk on the wild side" there. Where's the drama in that? Remembering that Joss' creations are entertainment, it would seem that Buffy and the good GI Joe, always doing the right thing isn't 1)remotely realistic given everyone's capacity for human failings/foibles and 2)ultimately isn't entertaining. The idea of letting the heroine attain her professed deepest wish for ever and ever has no tension. Inevitably, the drama goes out of the series. The whole point is to have the tension exist between seeking a goal and attaining a goal. Arguably, Buffy dating Angel could be seen as being on the side of good all the time. But, add to that the facts that 1)Angel was a vampire-the very thing Buffy was chosen to eliminate, soul or not and 2)that Buffy still loved him and wanted him back from his change to Angelus and you have drama! She had to choose at the end of season two, between right (saving the world) and her own desires (having Angel back) which could be seen as a gray area. She chose right, ultimately, but then things were more black/white, good/evil for her up until then. She couldn't take Angelus out before that point, because she was letting her hope and own desires take precedence over the welfare of Sunnydale's population. I'd say she made her first definitive morally gray decision by letting Angelus live. The distinctions can blur even more as one ages, being presented with all kinds of opportunities to "backslide" as it were. Buffy the good needs to confront these things and Riley would not give her the chance or present her with the opportunities to do so. Soulless Spike, on the other hand, while still evil, is working his way through the moral gray area toward good, culminating in voluntarily getting his soul. But, that journey is long and fraught with pitfalls and Buffy jumps right in out of pain and longing to escape. How many of us did the same when we were young, and how many continue as they age? Buffy, in growing up, becomes better able to make the tough decisions, the morally gray decisions, that are required to fulfill her mission. I'm not sure she could have done that without exploring the dark with Spike and seeing a bit of his world. Anyway, there's much more drama in that than there would be with all good all the time boyfriend, regardless of who he is. And, ultimately, aren't we interested foremost in the drama and entertainment value of this medium? Joss is, if nothing else, masterful at exploring the tension between black/white/gray, good/evil/morally ambigous and breaking Buffy and Riley up sending her eventually into the world of Spike does just that. Assume the IMO, of course. ;D
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Post by fish1941 on Sept 8, 2007 12:14:31 GMT -5
So, you never saw Riley's original narrow-minded view of non-humans and his decision to visit vamp whores due to his own jealousy and insecurity over Buffy's relationship with Angel as a sign that he was "not inclined toward evil in any sense"?
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