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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 15, 2005 11:17:42 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Queen E on Feb 15, 2005 18:00:45 GMT -5
Spring, I never cease to be impressed by the way that you can take a seemingly "humor only" line like "We will bring you the limp and beaten body of Bob Barker" and realize that the focus of the episode is "the price of things": slaying, love, the truth. Fantabulous job!
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 16, 2005 0:22:51 GMT -5
Spring, I never cease to be impressed by the way that you can take a seemingly "humor only" line like "We will bring you the limp and beaten body of Bob Barker" and realize that the focus of the episode is "the price of things": slaying, love, the truth. Fantabulous job! Thanks, Erin! I appreciate the feedback- I need the encouragement! How's it going on the Angel analyses? It is very easy to get behind the pace you'd hoped for, huh? But I will keep plugging along if you do . . . here is your encouragement: Go, Erin! Yay, Erin! Keep up the good work, Erin! I rewatched the next ep, Tough Love, in which Glory thinks Tara is The Key, and brain sucks her. It's probably my least favorite ep of Season 5 - not because it is badly done but because it is a very . . . harsh and painful episode, with scarcely a moment of comic relief.
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Post by Queen E on Feb 16, 2005 0:43:46 GMT -5
Thanks, Erin! I appreciate the feedback- I need the encouragement! How's it going on the Angel analyses? It is very easy to get behind the pace you'd hoped for, huh? But I will keep plugging along if you do . . . here is your encouragement: Go, Erin! Yay, Erin! Keep up the good work, Erin! I rewatched the next ep, Tough Love, in which Glory thinks Tara is The Key, and brain sucks her. It's probably my least favorite ep of Season 5 - not because it is badly done but because it is a very . . . harsh and painful episode, with scarcely a moment of comic relief. Oh, lordy yes. I was doing pretty well for awhile, trying to do one every 7-10 days, but that all fell apart in November, with all the grad school stuff. And Go Spring, it's your birthday! Or something like that. We will continue to encourage each other in this crazy three-legged analysis race. (Wow, I really need to get to bed if my metaphors are getting that convoluted.) Oy. That is a tough one...especially with Willow's misunderstanding Giles' "It's over" to mean her relationship with Tara, and then boom! It was on a couple of weekends ago, and I found myself wondering if that wasn't actually the beginning of the end for the two of them...it sets up so much of the trauma of Season 6. *sigh* I'll keep a good thought; I can't imagine how hard the remaining Season 5 episodes will be to write...Interventions really the last comic relief we get, 'cept the nice little "We few, we happy few" moment between Giles and Spike. And here I am stuck on writing my "Blind Date" analysis...what's going to happen when I get to "A Hole in the World"?
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 16, 2005 0:50:22 GMT -5
Oh, lordy yes. I was doing pretty well for awhile, trying to do one every 7-10 days, but that all fell apart in November, with all the grad school stuff. And Go Spring, it's your birthday! Or something like that. We will continue to encourage each other in this crazy three-legged analysis race. (Wow, I really need to get to bed if my metaphors are getting that convoluted.) Oy. That is a tough one...especially with Willow's misunderstanding Giles' "It's over" to mean her relationship with Tara, and then boom! It was on a couple of weekends ago, and I found myself wondering if that wasn't actually the beginning of the end for the two of them...it sets up so much of the trauma of Season 6. *sigh* I'll keep a good thought; I can't imagine how hard the remaining Season 5 episodes will be to write...Interventions really the last comic relief we get, 'cept the nice little "We few, we happy few" moment between Giles and Spike. And here I am stuck on writing my "Blind Date" analysis...what's going to happen when I get to "A Hole in the World"? What's going to happen by the time you get to Season 5 AtS's A Hole in The World? Well hopefully, by the time you're in your 40's you'll have toughened up some.
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Post by LadyDi on Feb 16, 2005 18:49:32 GMT -5
Wish I had something more cogent to add to the disscussion than just: "Wow!" but I'm not quite there yet. I know I've mentioned it before, but this is one of my very favorite eps. I too believe Spike has killed, and gloried in doing so. Altho' I tend to put his tally a little lower perhaps. I don't see much reason to be offended by his smoking during that particular scene, nor can I be offended by the 'bot. I should be, I guess (ME keeps telling me so), but she's just so...perky. Hell, I can't even get offended by her perkiness. I'm very glad you mentioned the scene where the 'bot responds to Giles' call for help. That's really one of the most telling scenes in this ep (IMO). Even with her mostly-Spike-most-of-the-time programming, she's not all about him in the same way April was all about Warren. Bully for Spike, who doesn't want just any girl, or a sex toy with delusions of personhood. I guess that's why I'm not as offended as I ought to be. The Guy-les Giles thing is kinda funny, but I always chalked that up to Warren. Most likely, he was just working from Spike's written notes. Did the 'bot even interact w/Dawn? Given Spike and Dawn's friendship, and Dawn's importance to Buffy, I can't imagine she wouldn't be part of the 'bot's programming. A great job, Spring, as always. Thank you for sharing.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 16, 2005 19:09:51 GMT -5
Wish I had something more cogent to add to the disscussion than just: "Wow!" but I'm not quite there yet. I know I've mentioned it before, but this is one of my very favorite eps. Thanks, Di. Well - he's been a vamp for over 100 years and he's gotta eat, so . . . I don't think I would like it if I learned that a guy I knew had an artificial "me" made, and had sex with it (lots of times, in lots of different ways). It would be pretty oooky. Like Buffy, I would think of it as disgusting, no matter how pretty or perky or nice the Spring-bot was. But also like Buffy, I would find it forgiveable considering what Spike had just done for her and Dawn. And with the understanding that his "relationship" with the bot was OVER. Yes - that scene with the bot leaving Spike to help Giles was deliberate, I thought - another thing to show us that Buffy's "goodness" is what is attracting Spike. All the Restless references, and Giles specifically mentioning "transferring guardianship" of Buffy, is what made me feel that it was no coincidence that Spike doesn't bother to program Giles' name correctly. Buffy's relationship with Spike is all about grown-up Buffy; it is all about Buffy leaving Dad behind. This "Guy-els" thing just seemed one more reference to the . . . leaving childhood behind . . . aspect of B/S. The 'bot never sees Dawn, but Spike shows no surprise when "Buffy as the bot" seems to know all about Dawn - so definitely, the bot would surely be programmed with Dawn info.
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Post by LadyDi on Feb 16, 2005 20:14:00 GMT -5
Thanks, Di. Well - he's been a vamp for over 100 years and he's gotta eat, so . . . I don't think I would like it if I learned that a guy I knew had an artificial "me" made, and had sex with it (lots of times, in lots of different ways). It would be pretty oooky. Like Buffy, I would think of it as disgusting, no matter how pretty or perky or nice the Spring-bot was. But also like Buffy, I would find it forgiveable considering what Spike had just done for her and Dawn. And with the understanding that his "relationship" with the bot was OVER. Yes - that scene with the bot leaving Spike to help Giles was deliberate, I thought - another thing to show us that Buffy's "goodness" is what is attracting Spike. All the Restless references, and Giles specifically mentioning "transferring guardianship" of Buffy, is what made me feel that it was no coincidence that Spike doesn't bother to program Giles' name correctly. Buffy's relationship with Spike is all about grown-up Buffy; it is all about Buffy leaving Dad behind. This "Guy-els" thing just seemed one more reference to the . . . leaving childhood behind . . . aspect of B/S. The 'bot never sees Dawn, but Spike shows no surprise when "Buffy as the bot" seems to know all about Dawn - so definitely, the bot would surely be programmed with Dawn info. Spike had to eat, and he's killed w/o eating ( School Hard), but I can't shake the feeling he could've been a lot worse and killed even more than he did -- no excuse, just a feeling. Spike kills when opportunity arises, but doesn't go too far out of his way for it (except for Slayers). Maybe I would feel diferently about the 'bot if I were in Buffy's place. Dunno. I can understand why she's offended. She thinks the worst of Spike, and assumes the worst about the 'bot. Can see your point, re: Guy-les, but doubt Spike stuck around to make sure Warren had the pronunciation correct. Maybe it's a 'bit of both.' Still, everything else was right, and Spike would want the 'bot to know Giles as Buffy does. Not deliberate, just an oversight.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 16, 2005 20:41:54 GMT -5
Spike had to eat, and he's killed w/o eating ( School Hard), but I can't shake the feeling he could've been a lot worse and killed even more than he did -- no excuse, just a feeling. Spike kills when opportunity arises, but doesn't go too far out of his way for it (except for Slayers). Maybe I would feel diferently about the 'bot if I were in Buffy's place. Dunno. I can understand why she's offended. She thinks the worst of Spike, and assumes the worst about the 'bot. Can see your point, re: Guy-les, but doubt Spike stuck around to make sure Warren had the pronunciation correct. Maybe it's a 'bit of both.' Still, everything else was right, and Spike would want the 'bot to know Giles as Buffy does. Not deliberate, just an oversight. Oh - I agree, the Guy-els is not deliberate, but the message is the fact that Spike "didn't even bother" to get it right. He had all that stuff programmed in, he was careful . . . but not with that. That's the whole point - that it was a careless oversight. Giles' name wasn't important.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 17, 2005 22:16:07 GMT -5
Spring! Interesting and insighful as ever!
Love, love, love, love. Boy did I notice all the mentions of love, when I rewatched this episode. Buffy, Giles, Glory, Xander, the First Slayer, the BuffyBot. Everybody's talkin' 'bout luuuurrrve. I love you. I loved my mother. If you love me.
But I hadn't noticed, until you pointed it out, how many mentions of worth or value or "preciousness" (or the lack thereof) there were.
Loved your examples of how his interaction with the 'Bot tell us about the real Spike and how a relationship with Buffy is imagined by him.
I have of course noticed the way they make Anya and the 'bot have similarities, but I had never thought to relate that to Xander's sympathetic feelings for Spike. Interesting! Also really liked how well you explain the linkage of Angel references to the "risk the pain" theme. I mean, yes, I've always seen the connection, but you put it so well, it's like I saw it all new and shiney. Keen!
And then, as you mention, there's just so much in this episode that echoes back to season 4 and before and so much that will be important in season 6 and beyond.
Lola
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 18, 2005 8:32:23 GMT -5
Spring! Interesting and insighful as ever! Thanks. As always, your feedback is much appreciated. I thought the title - Intervention - was meant to indicate the ep's significance - the ending being what it is, I think the ep represents a turning point for Buffy & Spike in particular, and for all of them in general. Dawn steals, Spike lets his inner William out for a stroll, Buffy kisses Spike, Giles transfers his guardianship of Buffy, Xander's less than mature love for Anya is apparent in the Anya/Buffybot parallels . . . Fate, God, (literally, Glory the God), Nature - whatever you want to call it - has intervened, and a corner is turned. Next ep, Willow is going to be letting her inner Evil-Willow out for a stroll. And we're heading inexorably toward the Season 6 happenings.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 18, 2005 9:45:19 GMT -5
Spring, marvelous episode, uber-marvelous analysis. I got/remember the love references but didn't make the connection to the price/value references. Your commentary, as always, has made an already loved episode richer for me. Thank you.
I sooooo want the DVDs, to watch this ep again, in its totality!
When the property taxes (due the end of January) have been paid. I can be patient....
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 18, 2005 11:33:49 GMT -5
Spring, marvelous episode, uber-marvelous analysis. I got/remember the love references but didn't make the connection to the price/value references. Your commentary, as always, has made an already loved episode richer for me. Thank you. I sooooo want the DVDs, to watch this ep again, in its totality! When the property taxes (due the end of January) have been paid. I can be patient.... Thanks, Nan. Your feedback is much appreciated. Yep - there are many "value" references in the episode, and references to the way appearances can deceive us, when it comes to determining true value. With Spike hanging on that hook and talking about The Price Is Right, I kept thinking "How much would I be willing to pay for him? Do kids really NEED to go to college? Do they truly require THREE whole meals a day?" Etc. I hope you get the DVDs of your dreams soon. Since I didn't start watching BtVS "live" until Season 6 (well, even then it was summer repeats of Season 6 on UPN), most of my experience with the eps were FX, edited versions. It has been so nice to see them in their totality.
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Post by Karen on Feb 22, 2005 15:54:20 GMT -5
Well, I finally got a chance to read your review (9 pages!), rewatch the episode and have some time to say Yay! Awesome review, Spring! *whew* My favorite parts were "floppy drive" (my 12-year old self) and all the examples of Spike's goodness that he programmed into Buffy. Sure, he wants the good sex, but he also wants a *real* Buffy. One who slays and loves her family and friends - and the ability to be able to share that love. Things that the real Buffy was struggling to feel herself, at the time. I wonder how long it would've taken him to be bored with the Buffybot - much like Warren had gotten tired of the perfect "Katrina". Speaking of the 'floppy drive', the first thing Warren, when he finally had Katrina under his control, had her do was access his floppy drive in a very cold manner. I wonder if that's an intentional parallel to Spike's seemingly thoughtless smoking while Buffybot was 'busy'. Or, are we being shown that Spike knows the difference between the Buffybot and Buffy - and that he was just fooling himself - altho, we do KNOW this, we're being shown for a reason. Aaack. I'm not expressing what I mean very well here. Anyway. Very good review. I like how it made me think. Even when it makes me jump to S5 of Angel and make a comparison with the way Vail *made* Connor with the mindwipe - as good and wholesome - "some of his best work". And now I'm thinking that Vail must have had some goodness in him to be able to make Connor so well - and maybe in a likeness of what he wishes he could have been? *pout* Want S6, because (and I know you disagree here), I don't think Vail is dead, or if he is, I think he transferred his 'essence or memories' to Wesley after Illyria left him. Thus, making Wesley more than he was - much like Illyria fusing with Fred made Fred more than she was. Lalalalala - erinland. And so off-track. Sorry. Wow! moment for me while reading your review: "Q. How is a vampire who won't talk (i.e., Spike) like and apple? A. Forbidden fruit, that's how. Temptation from the Big Bad Snake, that's how. Take that first, sweet and juicy bit - and you're a goner." Poor Buffy. She never had a chance, did she?
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Post by Karen on Feb 22, 2005 15:56:51 GMT -5
Thanks, Nan. Your feedback is much appreciated. Yep - there are many "value" references in the episode, and references to the way appearances can deceive us, when it comes to determining true value. With Spike hanging on that hook and talking about The Price Is Right, I kept thinking "How much would I be willing to pay for him? Do kids really NEED to go to college? Student loans. Happy Meals are cheap. And to be able to use the pause and zoom feature.
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