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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 22, 2005 17:21:00 GMT -5
Well, I finally got a chance to read your review (9 pages!), rewatch the episode and have some time to say Yay! Awesome review, Spring! *whew* Thanks I often indulge my inner 12 yr old in writing the analyses- glad I gave yours a giggle. Spike is pretty much always . . . shadowing Buffy . . . doing what she can't do, what she's repressing. This seems to be part of that - Spike, with his building of the 'bot, is allowing expression of exactly that part of Buffy that Buffy is having trouble accessing. I think there are quite a few deliberate Warren/Spike parallels drawn in Season 6 (also, Warren/Buffy and most notably, Warren/Willow). Spike - he's . . . pretty much a mess of contradictions, and it's twisting him all up inside, and we see it in his behavior, which veers from incredibly monstrous to incredibly loving, and all kinds of things inbetween, as the Season progresses. Vail dead. Want Season 6 AtS. To paraphrase Buffy in Crush: The only chance she had of resisting Spike was when she was conscious. She's beginning to access the ol' unconscious here . . . letting herself begin to indulge it, and it's a very slippery slope. That wording "how is a vampire who won't talk like an apple?" That's exactly what Spike is in Season 6: A vampire who won't talk. And the fact that he's willing and able to keep the secret of their affair is part of what makes him eventually irresistible. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 22, 2005 17:21:36 GMT -5
Student loans. Happy Meals are cheap. And to be able to use the pause and zoom feature.  LOL! So true. |
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Post by Michelle on Feb 22, 2005 17:55:23 GMT -5
I love the entire essay, Spring, but I was especially moved to comment on this part. I think this captures the essence of the entire episode. It's something I felt unconsciously, but you put it into words. It's just perfect! I think I like this episode so much because it shows both how very low and how very high Spike will go in the name of love. How low? He'll make a robot to act out his fantasies, sexual and otherwise. How high? He'll withstand torture to protect another person from a hellgod. And the beautiful part of this episode is that Buffy realizes that with the right guidance, Spike will usually choose the high road. Yes, she was squicked by the 'bot--as well she should be. But at the end, instead of dusting Spike or beating him up (more!), she kisses him. She tells him that what he did for her and Dawn was real. And we all know that something authentic has far more value than a forgery. What is Buffy thinking at the moment she kisses? I'd like to think it's something more evolved than, "Spike! You're covered in sexy wounds!"  |
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 22, 2005 19:22:24 GMT -5
I love the entire essay, Spring, but I was especially moved to comment on this part. I think this captures the essence of the entire episode. It's something I felt unconsciously, but you put it into words. It's just perfect! Thanks, and always good to hear from you. Well put, I agree wholeheartedly. Hmmm . . . interesting . . . well . . . I don't think Buffy's thinking a whole lot, I think she's responding to an instinctual desire to kiss Spike . . . born of her attraction to him, which is more than just sexual. His actions here soften her enough to allow her to indulge her attraction - not to suggest she is being phony with her gratitude in any way. I think it's both things - she's attracted to him, and she's grateful and impressed with him. So she kisses him tenderly on the lips. |
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Post by Michelle on Feb 23, 2005 9:48:56 GMT -5
I agree, but I still wonder if it might be a bit more as well. I love watching the expressions play out on Spike and Buffy's face right after the kiss (James and Sarah are amazing in this scene).
He realizes something is different about the kiss-- she doesn't feel like the bot, so he pulls away, confused. She just looks at him, blinking innocently, still in the guise of the bot.
But then as he continues to look at her, her expression changes ever so slightly. It's subtle, but he (and we) can tell that she's the really real Buffy. Even as bruised and broken as his face is, we can see that Spike is stunned by this.
Hmmm...maybe part of what Buffy finds attractive about Spike is that she can be "really real" with him. She doesn't have to hold back her strength, like she did with Riley. Thinking about this puts a new perspective on the episode Smashed for me. In that episode, she only allowed herself to be with him once she realized that he wasn't just a neutered vampire (towards her). She discovered that he could hurt her as much as she could hurt him, and so she finally didn't have to hold back her strength any longer.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 23, 2005 16:38:58 GMT -5
I agree, but I still wonder if it might be a bit more as well. I love watching the expressions play out on Spike and Buffy's face right after the kiss (James and Sarah are amazing in this scene). He realizes something is different about the kiss-- she doesn't feel like the bot, so he pulls away, confused. She just looks at him, blinking innocently, still in the guise of the bot. But then as he continues to look at her, her expression changes ever so slightly. It's subtle, but he (and we) can tell that she's the really real Buffy. Even as bruised and broken as his face is, we can see that Spike is stunned by this. Hmmm...maybe part of what Buffy finds attractive about Spike is that she can be "really real" with him. She doesn't have to hold back her strength, like she did with Riley. Thinking about this puts a new perspective on the episode Smashed for me. In that episode, she only allowed herself to be with him once she realized that he wasn't just a neutered vampire (towards her). She discovered that he could hurt her as much as she could hurt him, and so she finally didn't have to hold back her strength any longer. Yes - I'm with you all the way on that. I think the fact that Spike can hurt Buffy definitely plays a part in her finally giving in to her attraction to him - both because she can see him as an equal, and because she's looking to punish herself at that point . . . there is a lot going on there. I just finished and submitted Tough Love. I'm going to really try to pick up the pace and get through Season 5 - 'cause Season 6 is just so juicy! |
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Post by Cal on Feb 28, 2005 13:11:52 GMT -5
Yes - I'm with you all the way on that. I think the fact that Spike can hurt Buffy definitely plays a part in her finally giving in to her attraction to him - both because she can see him as an equal, and because she's looking to punish herself at that point . . . there is a lot going on there. I just finished and submitted Tough Love. I'm going to really try to pick up the pace and get through Season 5 - 'cause Season 6 is just so juicy! I loved this analysis, Spring. One of my favourite episodes ever, made even more enjoyable than before. Thank you. I have to admit, I can't wait for your analyses on Season 6. It's so much darker than anything we've had before, which is one of the reasons I love Season 6 so much. I'm very interested in reading your views on it. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 28, 2005 19:51:36 GMT -5
I loved this analysis, Spring. One of my favourite episodes ever, made even more enjoyable than before. Thank you. I have to admit, I can't wait for your analyses on Season 6. It's so much darker than anything we've had before, which is one of the reasons I love Season 6 so much. I'm very interested in reading your views on it. You're welcome, cal. As always, thanks for letting me know you are reading and enjoying. I am planning to get through Season 5 no later than the end of March. Season 6 should be a kick! This is a nice way to keep the Jossverse semi-alive for myself as I work my way through the eps. |
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Post by deborah on Mar 3, 2005 0:34:05 GMT -5
Late to the party, and probably talking to myself, but great analysis, Spring. I finally read the hard-copies I'd printed out of it and your Tough Love analysis while waiting for my color to set at the hair salon today.
"Intervention" was a turning point for me, in terms of acknowledging I was hooked on the series and especially on Spike. I'd been getting to appreciate and like him as more than just eye candy in the few earlier episodes I'd seen, but when I saw him place that order for a Buffybot at the end of IWMTLY I recoiled, and was all squicked out and quite disappointed. (And I know I wasn't alone; couisinjean wrote somewhere that it was her dismay at this juncture that led to her conception of the Dancing Lessons series.)
So, when "Intervention" came along it was a real stunner. I am so glad that Jane E got this episode to write. I wonder if that was just a happy accident or if Joss assigned it to her especially. It was one, continuous revelation about Spike, as you demonstrate. I recall in the beginning of the episode when he was collecting the 'bot from Warren, I was feeling all this resentment and hostility toward him (well, at the writers, really, for *spoiling* the character for me) but surprise surprise - revelations upon revelations! They'd knocked him down with "Crush" and lowered him even further with his commission of the 'bot, and then over the course of this episode they take him from that depth of contemptuous depravity to the heights of heroism, or knight, or champion....Breathtaking work, Jane.
As many times as I've watched this episode I was not surprised to find, much to my delight, so much to enlighten me in your insightful analysis. The Price is Right....Damn! I never caught any of that. The Bob Barker line - I never connected it with all those allusions to price and value that you pointed out. You are good!
A couple of minor disagreements:
I didn't think that Spike's immediate collapse upon the arrival of Buffy and the Scoobies suggested an awareness on his part, either conscious or unconscious, that they had any love for him. I never tried to put my sense of Spike's relief at their arrival and his instant abandonment of any further pretense of strength or resistance into words. But if I think about it, it just seems to me that he knew that they knew (through Xander's eye witness observation) that he'd been taken against his will by Glory's minions. He figured he'd previously established and had been accepted as being on their side against Glory; Buffy had placed her mother and sister under his protection to keep them safe against her, after all. Maybe he just assumed that despite the bad blood between them since his mis-calculation in chaining Buffy up and threatening to let Drusilla eat her unless she admitted to having feelings for him, that they wouldn't let Glory get away with kidnaping one of their own in connection with their fight. I think that their intervention truly was at least in part prompted by their fear that he would talk, but also by their sense of proprietary rights over him.
I was pleasantly surprised and somewhat amused to find that you dealt with the cigarette scene without once resorting to that "m" word that was the source of so much debate and contention during previous discussion on the main board way back when . Me, I prefer to think that since his hands were free, he was indulging in the combined pleasures of smoking and sex at the same time, rather than waiting until the traditional post coital cigarette; ).
Re Guy-els, I agree with the previous poster who attributed that mistake to Warren. After all, Warren built the 'bot according to Spike's specifications, but in what way with that box of photos and pilfered belongings and presumably notes that he delivered to Warren would Spike have specified the mis-pronunciation? And when Spike took possession of the 'bot, it's not as if he did any user testing before putting her into production, beyond assessing her visual appearance and experiencing her enthusiastic reception. Would he even have known that she mis-pronounced Giles' name? Otoh, Giles assumes it was a deliberate insult by Spike, so maybe we're meant to believe it. I don't know.
Oh yeah - floppy drive. Hee. But I think of it more as her activating his hard drive.
And lastly, the kiss. I'm prepared to accept the possiblility that Buffy was at least partly motivated by desire, but I never sensed it that way at that moment. I've always seen the gesture as her acknowledgement and acceptance that not only were his feelings for her real, despite all her many past stubborn assertions to the contrary, but that those feelings assured his steadfast and stalwart strength and loyalty. Her kiss was the reward she bestowed, along with her promise not to forget that what he'd done was real. (Sadly, a promise she failed to keep when she returned from the grave.)
Those were the extent of my quibbles. As for the rest (which was virtually all of it) it was a truly wonderful analysis. You really did a beatiful job with one of my favorite episodes. Brava, Spring.
Apple = (talking) Spike = forbidden fruit...awesome.
I had a couple of thoughts on your "Tough Love" analysis too but that will have to wait till another time. It's late and I'm knackered. (Did Spike ever use the word knackered? If not it seems as if it should have been part of his vocabulary, unless our English S'cubies disagree, in which case I'd defer to their judgement.)
deborah
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 3, 2005 7:19:42 GMT -5
Late to the party, and probably talking to myself, but great analysis, Spring. I finally read the hard-copies I'd printed out of it and your Tough Love analysis while waiting for my color to set at the hair salon today. "Intervention" was a turning point for me, in terms of acknowledging I was hooked on the series and especially on Spike. I'd been getting to appreciate and like him as more than just eye candy in the few earlier episodes I'd seen, but when I saw him place that order for a Buffybot at the end of IWMTLY I recoiled, and was all squicked out and quite disappointed. (And I know I wasn't alone; couisinjean wrote somewhere that it was her dismay at this juncture that led to her conception of the Dancing Lessons series.) So, when "Intervention" came along it was a real stunner. I am so glad that Jane E got this episode to write. I wonder if that was just a happy accident or if Joss assigned it to her especially. It was one, continuous revelation about Spike, as you demonstrate. I recall in the beginning of the episode when he was collecting the 'bot from Warren, I was feeling all this resentment and hostility toward him (well, at the writers, really, for *spoiling* the character for me) but surprise surprise - revelations upon revelations! They'd knocked him down with "Crush" and lowered him even further with his commission of the 'bot, and then over the course of this episode they take him from that depth of contemptuous depravity to the heights of heroism, or knight, or champion....Breathtaking work, Jane. Yep. It is really good. Very funny, but also very dramatic and touching, etc. Thank you! They could easily have killed Spike, right then and there, to keep him from talking. Spike wasn't at all afraid of them; he was relieved to see them. He's all ready to fight; then he doesn't. The whole ep is about love, and how you recognize love (how much you value, how much you are valued) in the actions of others ("I could never kill you!"). And the truth is - Buffy and The Scoobies aren't going to kill Spike. They know it, and he knows it. Spike's mysoginistic streak is much better represented by his whole Harmony thing. The smoking thing - I remember it started that debate on the board, but I never considered it a major indication. It's mostly insignificant in the scheme of things. But I will never understand the contention that Spike does NOT have a mysonginistic streak. Of course he does. We even find out what it is about: Mummy. (surprise!) Neither Giles nor I suggested that Spike was deliberately insulting Giles. Who said the insult was deliberate? The significant part is that Spike "didn't even think to" provide basics about Giles. He's obviously gone to a lot of trouble to make sure that the bot "is Buffy." And the significant part is that the "Guyels" error is NOT deliberate (unlike the deliberate Angel insults). It's just due to oversight. To me, it's just - well, no way, in an ep that features Giles temporarily giving Buffy-custody to big cat, and references to Restless, that it is a coincidence that we note that Spike doesn't put much importance on Giles. Ha! You're good. I actually debated on whether to use "floppy" or "hard," but I thought floppy sounded funnier and since it seemed like Xander interrupted things right at the start, I assumed the Buffybot had just . . . accessed . . . rather than . . activated. I think Buffy kept her promise. She was all screwed up through much of it, but she would never have trusted Spike enough to even have that messy relationship with him if she had ever forgotten what he did in "Intervention." What she ends up forgetting, in Season 6, is not that Spike has a good side, but that he has an evil side. Also - I agree the "desire" part was only part of the picture. But I think it is a definite part - strongly suggested by the TYPE of kiss (try to imagine, would she have given Xander or Oz or Giles this type of lingery on the lips kiss for the same type of thing?). And this being in the same ep as Dawn's first stealing . . . I think the suggestion is there and deliberate. Thanks for taking the time to share these thoughts on it. It helps clarify my own thoughts. Well, if you get the energy and interest, drop in to the Tough Love thread and post away!! I love hearing any and all thoughts on this stuff. |
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Post by deborah on Mar 3, 2005 17:13:18 GMT -5
They could easily have killed Spike, right then and there, to keep him from talking. Spike wasn't at all afraid of them; he was relieved to see them. He's all ready to fight; then he doesn't. The whole ep is about love, and how you recognize love (how much you value, how much you are valued) in the actions of others ("I could never kill you!"). And the truth is - Buffy and The Scoobies aren't going to kill Spike. They know it, and he knows it. I wonder what Buffy and the Scoobies would have done if Spike hadn't known that Dawn was the Key? Would they still have contrived some excuse for rescuing him or just left him to Glory? What if he'd known, and when they got to Glory's apt building, instead of a bruised and broken vamp in a box they'd found him lounging in Glory's living-room and chatting with her over samosas? Would Buffy have assumed betrayal and dusted him? I think that Spike's knowledge of Dawn's identity as the Key and the condition that they found him in saved his life. Finding him so thrashed and obviously trying to escape won him the benefit of the doubt. Besides, if they'd killed him right away they'd have destroyed their means of finding out what he'd told her or how much Glory knew. As for Spike's collapse in relief at their arrival and his trust in his safety, surely he understood this, and he had a clear conscience (or whatever passed for a conscience in him) as far as keeping the secret of Dawn's identity from Glory, so why shouldn't he let himself relax and leave it to them? I do think that Buffy's assertion that they were going to find Spike to kill him rather than rescue him was just bluster, in the sense that on a deeper level, she must have had a tiny ray of hope that Spike's love for her was real so he wouldn't betray them. I don't believe that Buffy was as certain as she professed to be that Spike would talk. But her bluster upheld her comfortable world view that Spike was incapable of feeling real love and protected her from disappointment if he failed them. As far as the feelings that Buffy and the Scoobies had for Spike, I don't feel the love and don't see why it had to have been love that motivated their rescue. Where was his mummy born mysonginistic streak in his 100 yr + relationship with Drusilla? I think his harsh treatment of Harmony stemmed directly from his bitterness at being dumped by Dru. But we've gone back and forth about this before. Maybe we can just agree to disagree. Sorry. But this just was a matter of pronunciation. How was Spike to anticipate that Warren wouldn't know how Giles is pronounced? It's only an oversight if it's something you should have caught but didn't, and that doesn't apply in this case, IMO, anyway. (On Spike's behalf) You're one step away, Missy....Floppy was funnier, and after all, it is the default drive, but we don't know whether the 'bot had already accessed the floppy drive and activated the hard drive by the time they were interupted by Xander's arrival. We saw her stand up but we don't know how long she'd been in position. I'm not talking about suppressed true feelings. She'd openly, consciously declared out loud to Spike that what he'd done for her was real and that she wouldn't forget. Well, it's hard to reconcile her being mindful of this memory while at the same time cruelly dismissing him as an Evil, Souless Thing who can't feel anything real. No, since that would be like inappropriate kissing of a brother or a father. Ewwwe. Kissing Spike carries no such connotations, so she can acknowledge his love and reward faithfulness with the kind of kiss she knows he'll truly treasure. Agreed. But the forshadowing of their affair doesn't necessarily mean that Buffy was already acting on her suppressed attraction to Spike at that point. Thank you. My rare appearance has nothing to do with any lack of interest, I assure you. It's the time it takes me to get my thoughts together - way more time than you could imagine. So, commenting is rarely feasible, logistically. I did have a little question about Tough Love though, that I'll try to post on that thread later. deborah |
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 5, 2005 11:57:19 GMT -5
I wonder what Buffy and the Scoobies would have done if Spike hadn't known that Dawn was the Key? Would they still have contrived some excuse for rescuing him or just left him to Glory? What if he'd known, and when they got to Glory's apt building, instead of a bruised and broken vamp in a box they'd found him lounging in Glory's living-room and chatting with her over samosas? Would Buffy have assumed betrayal and dusted him? I think that Spike's knowledge of Dawn's identity as the Key and the condition that they found him in saved his life. Finding him so thrashed and obviously trying to escape won him the benefit of the doubt. Besides, if they'd killed him right away they'd have destroyed their means of finding out what he'd told her or how much Glory knew. As for Spike's collapse in relief at their arrival and his trust in his safety, surely he understood this, and he had a clear conscience (or whatever passed for a conscience in him) as far as keeping the secret of Dawn's identity from Glory, so why shouldn't he let himself relax and leave it to them? I do think that Buffy's assertion that they were going to find Spike to kill him rather than rescue him was just bluster, in the sense that on a deeper level, she must have had a tiny ray of hope that Spike's love for her was real so he wouldn't betray them. I don't believe that Buffy was as certain as she professed to be that Spike would talk. But her bluster upheld her comfortable world view that Spike was incapable of feeling real love and protected her from disappointment if he failed them. As far as the feelings that Buffy and the Scoobies had for Spike, I don't feel the love and don't see why it had to have been love that motivated their rescue. It's the giving and receiving of love - messy and imperfect as it is - that ultimately saves Spike. In all the nasty other stuff he surely did. But really, it's also there in his totally "I'm whatever you want me to be" relationship with Dru. He's so . . . passive-aggressive. Putting himself totally in a woman's hands also allows him to blame the woman completely for all his unhappiness. Sure. But I can't say I see anything but a clear indication of the connection between Spike's unhappy ways with women (including Dru), and what happened with Mummy. All I'm saying is that this mention and indication of Spike "not thinking Giles very important" is not coincidentally placed in the episode. That was my only point. I really wasn't trying to say that anything happened deliberately, or trying to figure out who programmed what or how, when. Let's try not to think about it all in too much detail, as the discussion will deteriorate rapidly. But it isn't hard to reconcile, is it? You kind of have reconciled it. Buffy's dealing with very conflicting feelings. On the one hand, she behaving as if she obviously hasn't forgotten Spike's S5 sacrifice (she's trusting him absolutely in Season 6); on the other hand, she's talking and acting as if she has totally forgotten it (being abusive in some of her words and behavior). Buffy's already feeling an attraction to Spike by this time. We see it very clearly in Fool For Love. So it's all kind of . . . mixed together - and results in this kiss. The fact that she doesn't have a brotherly feeling toward him is kinda my point. She kisses him on the lips - she has a suppressed attraction . . . it's a 2 +2 for me. They're related. I will look for that.  |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Mar 6, 2005 16:40:22 GMT -5
Great review, Spring. You're really putting them out there. And you're almost to season 6! Go, Spring, Go!
Love your pointing out the theme of love through action, wanting to be near others.
I had noted these two things before, but never had put them together quite this way. brilliant.
I find it intriguing that Spike had the 'bot programmed to be sexually aggressive and makes himself submissive to a *robot*, and that the first thing he does is go down on it. Says a little about himself, a little about how he sees Buffy.
I agree with Linda about the Spike smoking when the bot is "accessing his floppy drive." I don't see anything really callous or mysogynistic about it. It's as consensual as possible when one of the participants is a robot. I see reciprocity, since the first thing he did was go down on it, and, from the expression on his face, it seems to me like he's getting bored with it already.
It's funny that you mention this, because when I was rewatching the episode, Buffy saying to Giles that she was "starting to feel uneasy about stuff," made me think of Restless, and I was wondering whether I was reading too much into it.
So, so true. I love how you put this. It definitely explains her confusion when she's listening to The First Slayer. And by her cookie dough discussion in Chosen, she's no longer using her role as the Slayer as the reason for this or that.
The final scene is wonderful. Even though I understand it, I'm always disappointed that Buffy doesn't want to hear Spike's explanation for the 'bot. She may even have been surprised. It's not so bad here, but that tendency of hers to refuse to let him talk (and to refuse to communicate herself) really starts here and becomes full blown in season 6. I like to think she reflected upon the way he was interacting with her when she was the bot (as the way he would like to interact with her if she allowed him too), and I always wonder whether either she ever looked at how he programmed the bot. Did her expectations match with the reality? Willow probably looked at the programming since she reprogrammed it, but I guess she kept that to herself.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 6, 2005 18:34:40 GMT -5
Great review, Spring. You're really putting them out there. And you're almost to season 6! Go, Spring, Go! Love your pointing out the theme of love through action, wanting to be near others. Thanks. I need the encouragement! Yes, agree. I am going to give up commenting on this, because I feel a whole lot like I am not expressing myself clearly. People are disagreeing with a point I'm not making. But I don't know how to say it better. Since it seems everyone is doing this, I'd say it's me - I'm not saying things clearly. But I gotta give up on it. I couldn't blame Buffy for being way too totally squicked to want to hear anything. I mean, what could Spike say that would make having the Buffybot produced OK? He got a chance to redeem himself and he did, and she's forgiven him. Best to leave it there, I would think, for all parties. |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Mar 6, 2005 18:45:52 GMT -5
I couldn't blame Buffy for being way too totally squicked to want to hear anything. I mean, what could Spike say that would make having the Buffybot produced OK? He got a chance to redeem himself and he did, and she's forgiven him. Best to leave it there, I would think, for all parties. I understand here why she doesn't want to hear it, and he doesn't have anything to say that would make it OK, but is the reason why she thinks he did it really the reason why he did? Like I said, it only disappoints me a little, but when she does the same thing (doesn't want to hear his explanation) in As You Were, it really bothers me, and then I look back and realize she did the same thing here. |
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