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Post by LadyDi on Mar 21, 2005 18:21:25 GMT -5
As for Spike's mysoginistic streak, you yourself pointed out that Harmony most always got her way (i.e., going to the party), but now I have a better idea where you're coming from (...being able to blame the woman for everything that's wrong in his unlife...). In LMPTM, he realizes that he is responsible for setting loose the demon that caused him so much pain, and ruined the most cherised relationship he had. What I'd mostly gotten from that ep. prior to this was a condemnation of the Oedipus complex. It is possible for a man to love his mother w/o wanting to f*ck her.
Interesting also how Buffy and the 'bot respond to Spike. One talks of killing him, the other of saving him. In the end, Buffy sorta does both.
Still don't like the cookie dough speech. Even tho' Buffy is no longer blaming her Slayerness for her relationship/life troubles, she is still taking the lion's share of blame for them (IMO). Now she's just blaming it on her age instead. Seems like of the men she's been involved with, only Parker (!) and Spike were really able to accept any responsibility for their side of things. Angel sure as hell doesn't!
However, just 'cuz you're young doesn't mean you can't know your own mind. Age is only part of maturity. Experience means a lot too, and this girl has had experiences few others could match.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 21, 2005 18:40:57 GMT -5
As for Spike's mysoginistic streak, you yourself pointed out that Harmony most always got her way (i.e., going to the party), but now I have a better idea where you're coming from (...being able to blame the woman for everything that's wrong in his unlife...). In LMPTM, he realizes that he is responsible for setting loose the demon that caused him so much pain, and ruined the most cherised relationship he had. What I'd mostly gotten from that ep. prior to this was a condemnation of the Oedipus complex. It is possible for a man to love his mother w/o wanting to f*ck her. Hi, Di! I finished Season 5! I cannot wait to get started on Season 6! LMPTM really sort of puts it all in perspective. When Spike says that what happened with his mom has been "weighing on him" for quite awhile - well, to me, his whole "problem with women" is what he is talking about - from the passive/aggressive stuff, to the aggressive/aggressive stuff. Yep - Harmony did usually get her way - and she was abusive in her own way, to Spike. It was definitely a two-way street. 'Cause Harmony is not exactly a bastion of psychological stability and emotional security. But that doesn't change the fact that Spike was abusive to her, though. It didn't seem that way to me. I thought Buffy was expressing - for the first time - a realistic view of her relationships, and herself. I didn't think she was placing any "blame" on anyone. Just accepting how things were and planning to move on. True. But Buffy obviously didn't feel ready to make any big relationship decisions. Come back and visit again, Di. Can't wait to get your take on some of the Season 6 particulars.
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Post by LadyDi on Mar 22, 2005 20:01:14 GMT -5
Hi, Di! I finished Season 5! I cannot wait to get started on Season 6! LMPTM really sort of puts it all in perspective. When Spike says that what happened with his mom has been "weighing on him" for quite awhile - well, to me, his whole "problem with women" is what he is talking about - from the passive/aggressive stuff, to the aggressive/aggressive stuff. Yep - Harmony did usually get her way - and she was abusive in her own way, to Spike. It was definitely a two-way street. 'Cause Harmony is not exactly a bastion of psychological stability and emotional security. But that doesn't change the fact that Spike was abusive to her, though. It didn't seem that way to me. I thought Buffy was expressing - for the first time - a realistic view of her relationships, and herself. I didn't think she was placing any "blame" on anyone. Just accepting how things were and planning to move on.True. But Buffy obviously didn't feel ready to make any big relationship decisions. Come back and visit again, Di. Can't wait to get your take on some of the Season 6 particulars. I don't think Buffy was blaming anyone in particular. It just seemed to me she was still taking most of the responsibility for her relationship troubles, saying they went wrong 'cuz she was too young (immature) to know what she wanted; that she wasn't done yet. Sorry, but is this faulty reasoning on her part or Joss's? You're never really done. Spike wasn't done, and he'd been dead for over a century! Fact is, it takes two to tango. Angel, Parker, Riley and Spike all brought their own issues to the relationships she had with them. Maybe it's just part of her letting Angel down easy ("It's not you, it's me."), but I don't think it's just a question of her maturity level.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 23, 2005 8:50:32 GMT -5
I don't think Buffy was blaming anyone in particular. It just seemed to me she was still taking most of the responsibility for her relationship troubles, saying they went wrong 'cuz she was too young (immature) to know what she wanted; that she wasn't done yet. Sorry, but is this faulty reasoning on her part or Joss's? You're never really done. Spike wasn't done, and he'd been dead for over a century! Fact is, it takes two to tango. Angel, Parker, Riley and Spike all brought their own issues to the relationships she had with them. Maybe it's just part of her letting Angel down easy ("It's not you, it's me."), but I don't think it's just a question of her maturity level. I agree that you are "never really done." You can't wait to be "100% done baking" to have relationships, or you will never have them! BUT - I have gone through a period in my life where I felt that I needed some time to myself, and needed to be "relationship free" to grow in certain ways - I just plain felt like I needed it. And I'm not sorry for that time, and I learned a lot from my hiatus. I am glad I did it. So I thought Buffy was expressing that same kind of need here. Right or wrong, it was how she felt - like she needed some time on her own to better define herself, and get to know herself. She had finally made some big, inner connections, and some big "outer" discoveries - and she needed time. I did get some of that "It's not you, it's me," "letting him down easy" feel in the "unbaked cookie" speech. But, though she seemed to be . . . selecting her words carefully, I didn't think she was being dishonest in saying that she wanted time for herself.
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Post by LadyDi on May 4, 2005 11:53:04 GMT -5
I agree that you are "never really done." You can't wait to be "100% done baking" to have relationships, or you will never have them! BUT - I have gone through a period in my life where I felt that I needed some time to myself, and needed to be "relationship free" to grow in certain ways - I just plain felt like I needed it. And I'm not sorry for that time, and I learned a lot from my hiatus. I am glad I did it. So I thought Buffy was expressing that same kind of need here. Right or wrong, it was how she felt - like she needed some time on her own to better define herself, and get to know herself. She had finally made some big, inner connections, and some big "outer" discoveries - and she needed time. I did get some of that "It's not you, it's me," "letting him down easy" feel in the "unbaked cookie" speech. But, though she seemed to be . . . selecting her words carefully, I didn't think she was being dishonest in saying that she wanted time for herself. I guess I have a different take on it, 'cuz romantic relationships haven't (so far) played a really huge role in my life. Having time to myself has never really been an issue. Ordinarily, I wouldn't even begrudge Buffy some time off - one of her reoccuring epiphanies - but some of those big discoveries have come courtesy of Spike. By changing himself, he changed a good chunk of her perceptions. Besides which, TGiQ then managed to f*ck up the whole baking thing pretty thouroghly (not that I have issues).
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Post by Michelle on May 5, 2005 11:04:22 GMT -5
I guess I have a different take on it, 'cuz romantic relationships haven't (so far) played a really huge role in my life. Having time to myself has never really been an issue. Ordinarily, I wouldn't even begrudge Buffy some time off - one of her reoccuring epiphanies - but some of those big discoveries have come courtesy of Spike. By changing himself, he changed a good chunk of her perceptions. Besides which, TGiQ then managed to f*ck up the whole baking thing pretty thouroghly (not that I have issues). TGiQ rubbed me the wrong way as well. But we can fanwank that her relationship with The Immortal was not a relationship at all, but just a fling while she "bakes." She never went clubbing with Angel, Riley or Spike. She did slow-dance with Angel & Riley (not concurrently, of course) But she never just let loose and had fun with them, and I think the scene in the club in Rome was supposed to signify Buffy just having fun. But hmmmm...thinking about this has me imagining Buffy and Spike dancing. Slow, fast, whatever....that would have been a scene to rewind again & again!
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Post by Onjel on May 5, 2005 12:27:15 GMT -5
I guess I have a different take on it, 'cuz romantic relationships haven't (so far) played a really huge role in my life. Having time to myself has never really been an issue. Ordinarily, I wouldn't even begrudge Buffy some time off - one of her reoccuring epiphanies - but some of those big discoveries have come courtesy of Spike. By changing himself, he changed a good chunk of her perceptions. Besides which, TGiQ then managed to f*ck up the whole baking thing pretty thouroghly (not that I have issues). I agree with the TGiQ statement. What the heck was she doing with the Immortal if she wanted time off from relationships to find out what she was all about? Whether she was hanging with the I for fun or not, it's still a relationship, especially if it involves sex. Perhaps the level of commitment is questionable, but it appeared to me that she was exclusive, implying some level of commitment. Perhaps a moment of lack of continuity and a way for ME to deal with SMG declining to appear on Angel S5. A way to explain it away, so to speak. IMO, of course.
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Post by leftylady on May 5, 2005 16:43:02 GMT -5
I agree with the TGiQ statement. What the heck was she doing with the Immortal if she wanted time off from relationships to find out what she was all about? Whether she was hanging with the I for fun or not, it's still a relationship, especially if it involves sex. Perhaps the level of commitment is questionable, but it appeared to me that she was exclusive, implying some level of commitment. Perhaps a moment of lack of continuity and a way for ME to deal with SMG declining to appear on Angel S5. A way to explain it away, so to speak. IMO, of course. Yes, perhaps in part to deal with the SMG absence. But also likely a way to deal with fans' expectations in the shipper wars, although ME's choices in presenting Buffy's current activities may not have served the character well and instead trivialized her.
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Post by Michelle on May 5, 2005 17:29:13 GMT -5
Yes, perhaps in part to deal with the SMG absence. But also likely a way to deal with fans' expectations in the shipper wars, although ME's choices in presenting Buffy's current activities may not have served the character well and instead trivialized her. That's a very good point. Buffy only "appeared" twice in the last season of Angel. In TGiQ, we see the back of her head as she's dancing rather enthusiastically. And earlier, in the episode Soul Purpose, Angel hallucinates that Spike is having sex with Buffy right next to him in bed. So, our two glimpses of Buffy are either of her screwing or dancing, and dancing is symbolic of mating ritual. On her own show, Buffy was representative of every young woman struggling to fight metaphorical demons. On Angel S5, she was nothing more than, literally, a sex symbol. That is rather disappointing.
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Post by Onjel on May 5, 2005 21:18:12 GMT -5
That's a very good point. Buffy only "appeared" twice in the last season of Angel. In TGiQ, we see the back of her head as she's dancing rather enthusiastically. And earlier, in the episode Soul Purpose, Angel hallucinates that Spike is having sex with Buffy right next to him in bed. So, our two glimpses of Buffy are either of her screwing or dancing, and dancing is symbolic of mating ritual. On her own show, Buffy was representative of every young woman struggling to fight metaphorical demons. On Angel S5, she was nothing more than, literally, a sex symbol. That is rather disappointing. Agree with both you and LeftyLady. Look at the name of the Angel ep, The Girl in Questionl. This, after Spike told her she was a hell of a woman in Touched. She had reached womanhood and yet, in Angel she was back to being a girl. Symbolic, perhaps of Angel's view of Buffy, perfect little girl with little girl fantasies about love.
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Post by LadyDi on May 9, 2005 20:38:48 GMT -5
Oooo, was I cheesed when I read the spoilers for TGiQ.
I like to think of this ep as a set-up (sadly, w/o a pay-off) for SMG to appear in Power Play. In only my wildest fantasies would ME allow Buffy and Spike to become a couple again, but I think Buffy was meant to return and express her love for Spike, who would believe her this time, and then off she'd go to rally the troops or whatever. Also, interesting to me that a mere mortal wouldn't do for Buffy after she'd been spoiled by Mr. Five-hours-straight. Remember Parker?
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Post by Onjel on May 9, 2005 21:53:26 GMT -5
Oooo, was I cheesed when I read the spoilers for TGiQ. I like to think of this ep as a set-up (sadly, w/o a pay-off) for SMG to appear in Power Play. In only my wildest fantasies would ME allow Buffy and Spike to become a couple again, but I think Buffy was meant to return and express her love for Spike, who would believe her this time, and then off she'd go to rally the troops or whatever. Also, interesting to me that a mere mortal wouldn't do for Buffy after she'd been spoiled by Mr. Five-hours-straight. Remember Parker? Oh yeah. I so wanted Buffy to come back and convince Spike she meant it, but not to be. I think we are meant to think that Buffy finally came to terms with the fact that mere mortals are not for her, and yes, I remember Parker the poop head. Clearly, she was never able to make it work with a regular guy. I don't think Angel spoiled her, but I do think someone in the same line of work or at least knowledgeable about the otherworldly would be the only guy for her. And five hours straight didn't seem to hurt, even if that is someone else's idea of bliss!
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Post by LadyDi on May 9, 2005 22:24:50 GMT -5
Oh yeah. I so wanted Buffy to come back and convince Spike she meant it, but not to be. I think we are meant to think that Buffy finally came to terms with the fact that mere mortals are not for her, and yes, I remember Parker the poop head. Clearly, she was never able to make it work with a regular guy. I don't think Angel spoiled her, but I do think someone in the same line of work or at least knowledgeable about the otherworldly would be the only guy for her. And five hours straight didn't seem to hurt, even if that is someone else's idea of bliss! We had a discussion on the main board once about whether or not a regular guy could "get the job done" for Buffy. Personally, I have my doubts. With Parker, she was young and inexperienced. Riley was a dope...er, being doped by Walsh. But Joss seems to have this crazy idea that Buffy's some kind of Everywoman (hence the whole 'normal life' thing) and will settle for find someone else. As if men like Spike grew on trees!
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Post by Onjel on May 9, 2005 22:32:29 GMT -5
We had a discussion on the main board once about whether or not a regular guy could "get the job done" for Buffy. Personally, I have my doubts. With Parker, she was young and inexperienced. Riley was a dope...er, being doped by Walsh. But Joss seems to have this crazy idea that Buffy's some kind of Everywoman (hence the whole 'normal life' thing) and will settle for find someone else. As if men like Spike grew on trees! I agree. That everywoman thing could never play out. Buffy wanted that with the fervor of a teenager who is embarrassed by her parents' mode of dress and wants to change them. Bad sentence structure, but you get my drift, right? No normal, human guy was ever going to get it done for her. Stamina notwithstanding, at least someone in the biz, or familiar with the biz was necessary. The stamina, and boatloads of experience were just a Buffy Summers bonus. And Angel, I really did not get the impression that he was all that great a first, if you know what I mean. Not nearly as talented or interesting as Spike.
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Post by Lola m on May 13, 2005 21:25:53 GMT -5
We had a discussion on the main board once about whether or not a regular guy could "get the job done" for Buffy. Personally, I have my doubts. With Parker, she was young and inexperienced. Riley was a dope...er, being doped by Walsh. But Joss seems to have this crazy idea that Buffy's some kind of Everywoman (hence the whole 'normal life' thing) and will settle for find someone else. As if men like Spike grew on trees! I agree. That everywoman thing could never play out. Buffy wanted that with the fervor of a teenager who is embarrassed by her parents' mode of dress and wants to change them. Bad sentence structure, but you get my drift, right? No normal, human guy was ever going to get it done for her. Stamina notwithstanding, at least someone in the biz, or familiar with the biz was necessary. The stamina, and boatloads of experience were just a Buffy Summers bonus. And Angel, I really did not get the impression that he was all that great a first, if you know what I mean. Not nearly as talented or interesting as Spike. Well, firsts are often a bit . . . rocky, as it were. And they never got time to practice, did they? But yes, I've always been of the opinion that Buffy needed to stop trying to find that "normal' guy that would fit into her world and be the perfect match for her. Probably not gonna work. She needs a true match, and that requires an element of the supernatural.
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