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Post by Lynn on Jun 5, 2005 10:12:56 GMT -5
Spring, THANK YOU for giving me access to your fiction. I had such a wonderful time with it. The "voices" seem right, the humor was adorable, and I have a stiff neck from staring so long at the screen. Spike still lives.
Some of the other fanfic writers forget that he is also a comic anti-hero too and miss that precious part of his charisma.
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Post by baunger1 on Apr 29, 2010 8:07:38 GMT -5
OK. I know that no one will be reading this 5years late, and so have been restraining myself from posting, but just in case...I am puzzling over something. Spike calls out to God in his moment of fear for at least the second time this season. Now, I guess this can be seen as his desire for good being expressed through "William," who would likely have been a religious man. However, after saying God, he descends, falls, into the elevator shaft, but is saved as a result of that fall. I'm trying to get my mind around how these concepts and images work together. This episode is also very interesting and creates some problems for me in later episode development, in that Spike engages in pure empathy and self-sacrifice without thought of reward, but rather to spare Buffy pain (which he can actually understand and feel). This raises the issue which I still spend a lot of time struggling with -- if Spike is capable of developing these feelings and resultant behaviors pre-soul, perhaps the same kind of positive reinforcement and acknowledgement Buffy gives him with that kiss could have either achieved necessary change without gaining a soul, or could have spurred him to seek a soul without the AR. I go back and forth on this issue a lot. Thanks again for your wonderful analyses. I'll be bumming when I have to continue without them too soon.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 29, 2010 11:41:56 GMT -5
OK. I know that no one will be reading this 5years late, and so have been restraining myself from posting, but just in case...I am puzzling over something. Spike calls out to God in his moment of fear for at least the second time this season. Now, I guess this can be seen as his desire for good being expressed through "William," who would likely have been a religious man. However, after saying God, he descends, falls, into the elevator shaft, but is saved as a result of that fall. I'm trying to get my mind around how these concepts and images work together. This episode is also very interesting and creates some problems for me in later episode development, in that Spike engages in pure empathy and self-sacrifice without thought of reward, but rather to spare Buffy pain (which he can actually understand and feel). This raises the issue which I still spend a lot of time struggling with -- if Spike is capable of developing these feelings and resultant behaviors pre-soul, perhaps the same kind of positive reinforcement and acknowledgement Buffy gives him with that kiss could have either achieved necessary change without gaining a soul, or could have spurred him to seek a soul without the AR. I go back and forth on this issue a lot. Thanks again for your wonderful analyses. I'll be bumming when I have to continue without them too soon. First: I just wanna say you are very wrong that no one is reading this - I always notice posts in this thread, and love to get them. It is never too late - post away, on any of the episode analysis threads! Second: You're welcome for the analyses. I loved doing them. I want to get back to them, I truly do. Have had huge stresses and interruptions. Posts like yours do help me feel motivated - after that, it's just a matter of getting up the gumption and time. Third: I'm gonna respond with my thoughts on the very interesting issues you raise, but that will take some time and thinky thoughts, so I just wanted to post this to say hi and let you know that the thread is not dead. In fact, I could imagine other S'cubies might want to thrown in their two cents on these topics as well. . .
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 29, 2010 16:00:01 GMT -5
OK. I know that no one will be reading this 5years late, and so have been restraining myself from posting, but just in case... As I said, no need to restrain! I remember thinking that scene was a very "sacrificial lamb" kind of thing . . . the way he lay atop that elevator, a sort of Christlike pose, and the calling out to God. Lots of foreshadowing for his upcoming role -sacrificing himself not just to save Buffy and Dawn, as he does here . . . but to save the world. Not sure what to make of the fact that he is descending, going downward to meet Buffy, who saves him, though - "in the basement" is where they save each other. There's a lot of argument on this, but I think the series is pretty clear on how it is in the Buffyverse - you need your soul to truly, independently differentiate between right and wrong. Now, just cause you have the ability, doesn't mean you're gonna use it, but you do need your soul to have the ability. So I don't think any amount of love or positive reinforcement would have allowed Spike to do anything more than what he did through Season Six - try to figure out what Buffy wants and do it. Not because he really knows right from wrong, or because he's driven to be good for the sake of goodness, but because he has an obsessive need - a kind of love, limited by his soulessness, but obsessive and overwhelming nonetheless - for Buffy (and it extends to Dawn, and actually, I think Joyce as well). Now,could love and positive reinforcement have spurred him to get his soul without the AR? Actually, IMO, I don't see how. I mean . . . what would motivate him, if he was already sitting pretty, getting Buffy's love and attention and such, without a soul? He does show, in this ep, that he has some sort of freakish, tiny, vestigal "spark" left in him, that flickers occasionally. That freakish spark is combined with the way the chip has forced him to change his ways, and the way his feelings for Buffy have motivated him to seek her approval and attention. And IMO, it's that one-in-a-million combination of tiny spark, chip, and Buffy-love, that allows Spike to get where he gets in this episode . . . a place where he makes a sacrifice for no reward other than to help Buffy. He actually does this in a smaller way, for the first time in Family, when he hits Tara to prove she's not a demon. So we do work up to this moment. You're welcome! If you have any further thoughts, questions, insights on any of this, please post away.
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Post by leftylady on Apr 29, 2010 17:02:39 GMT -5
OK. I know that no one will be reading this 5years late, and so have been restraining myself from posting, but just in case... As I said, no need to restrain! I remember thinking that scene was a very "sacrificial lamb" kind of thing . . . the way he lay atop that elevator, a sort of Christlike pose, and the calling out to God. Lots of foreshadowing for his upcoming role -sacrificing himself not just to save Buffy and Dawn, as he does here . . . but to save the world. Not sure what to make of the fact that he is descending, going downward to meet Buffy, who saves him, though - "in the basement" is where they save each other. There's a lot of argument on this, but I think the series is pretty clear on how it is in the Buffyverse - you need your soul to truly, independently differentiate between right and wrong. Now, just cause you have the ability, doesn't mean you're gonna use it, but you do need your soul to have the ability. So I don't think any amount of love or positive reinforcement would have allowed Spike to do anything more than what he did through Season Six - try to figure out what Buffy wants and do it. Not because he really knows right from wrong, or because he's driven to be good for the sake of goodness, but because he has an obsessive need - a kind of love, limited by his soulessness, but obsessive and overwhelming nonetheless - for Buffy (and it extends to Dawn, and actually, I think Joyce as well). Now,could love and positive reinforcement have spurred him to get his soul without the AR? Actually, IMO, I don't see how. I mean . . . what would motivate him, if he was already sitting pretty, getting Buffy's love and attention and such, without a soul? He does show, in this ep, that he has some sort of freakish, tiny, vestigal "spark" left in him, that flickers occasionally. That freakish spark is combined with the way the chip has forced him to change his ways, and the way his feelings for Buffy have motivated him to seek her approval and attention. And IMO, it's that one-in-a-million combination of tiny spark, chip, and Buffy-love, that allows Spike to get where he gets in this episode . . . a place where he makes a sacrifice for no reward other than to help Buffy. He actually does this in a smaller way, for the first time in Family, when he hits Tara to prove she's not a demon. So we do work up to this moment. You're welcome! If you have any further thoughts, questions, insights on any of this, please post away. Not to worry, baunger1. 5 years is nothing in vampire-years. I'm sure there will be lots of thinky thoughts for your renewal of the discussion. And yes, in the Buffy-verse, the canon is no full redemption without a soul, but there are many Spike fans who would have liked to see a go at it soul-less. And of course, the soul is not as defining in the Angel-verse. Lorne's demon soullessness is never at issue and he is one of the must gentle, kind residents of Angel's circle who is broken up by his final required deeds in that series. So yes, there are a lot of opinions, preferences, wishful thinking, what have you among the fans about Spike and a soul. Welcome to the board. Hope you'll post more and allow us to refresh our thoughts on BtVS or on any of the other discussion threads you'll find here. leftylady, who likes lefthanded Spike and lefthanded Joss - and not to forget lefthanded Giles
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Post by baunger1 on Apr 29, 2010 17:30:53 GMT -5
Thanks so much for responding. I very much appreciate your thoughts.
If I am able to take a step back, I do understand the idea of Spike's needing a soul, an internal moral compass, and I can accept that idea. The problem I have is that I didn't emotionally respond this way. I guess this is largely due to the fact that I really, really, really fell in love with Spike, and experienced enormous empathy, sympathy, and identification with him. I mean, we all try to be better for the person or people we love, want to be better because they deserve us to be better. And our efforts aren't any less legitimate because they are externally motivated in that way. So for Spike's pre-soul efforts to go, not only unacknowledged, but essentially ignored or denied, was very painful to me. As was the terrible physical and emotional abuse inflicted upon him. All through season 6, I just kept feeling like "C'mon! He's trying so hard! And fighting against his own nature! Reward him! He deserves to be loved!"
I think those feelings really influenced how I viewed the events of season 6, and made it difficult to accept that the AR was not simply a construct used to propel Spike to seek his soul.
Having a little distance from watching this for the first time and thinking more about it, I am more inclined to agree that the events need to occur as they do, but as I say, I still struggle with this. Because, in case you didn't get this, I really, really, really love Spike.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Apr 29, 2010 18:49:26 GMT -5
Well, you're in the right place. Spike love is what we're all about here. First, welcome to the board. Second, feel free to wander about. The general board above is for all the life-y stuff we do and there's lots and lots of tv love tossed about. As for Spike's evolution, lots of talkage about that, too. IMHO, Spike begins changing as early as Season 2 when he allies with Buffy to get Drusilla back. In this early stage he's all about her care. This is an early sign that Spike is different from most vampires. He's able to care for someone (Drusilla) outside himself. This is brought more clearly into perspective when we see how she treats him when their roles are reversed. Thereafter, each season we see Spike slowly change. It isn't obvious except in retrospect. The addition of the chip accelerates the process and his developing feelings for Buffy--and her family--accelerate the process even more. I've heard a lot of argument that Spike does what he does not because he feels anything but because he's got the possibility of Buffy as a "carrot" to motivate him. But I see Spike's journey to be much the same as that of a baby, first knowing the world only as an extension of itself and then slowly bringing other people into it as assets to help it along and finally understanding that other people need and deserve care and lastly feeling for others as well as oneself. If Buffy provides the motivation to Spike that motivation can be echoed in a child's desire to please a parent (do we really need to go into Freudian imagry here and focus on the child's desire to possess the parent?) If you want a discussion of Spike's journey to compliment Spring's amazing analyses, please read my essay, Baby Steps I'd very much like to hear what you think.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 29, 2010 22:35:33 GMT -5
As I said, no need to restrain! I remember thinking that scene was a very "sacrificial lamb" kind of thing . . . the way he lay atop that elevator, a sort of Christlike pose, and the calling out to God. Lots of foreshadowing for his upcoming role -sacrificing himself not just to save Buffy and Dawn, as he does here . . . but to save the world. Not sure what to make of the fact that he is descending, going downward to meet Buffy, who saves him, though - "in the basement" is where they save each other. There's a lot of argument on this, but I think the series is pretty clear on how it is in the Buffyverse - you need your soul to truly, independently differentiate between right and wrong. Now, just cause you have the ability, doesn't mean you're gonna use it, but you do need your soul to have the ability. So I don't think any amount of love or positive reinforcement would have allowed Spike to do anything more than what he did through Season Six - try to figure out what Buffy wants and do it. Not because he really knows right from wrong, or because he's driven to be good for the sake of goodness, but because he has an obsessive need - a kind of love, limited by his soulessness, but obsessive and overwhelming nonetheless - for Buffy (and it extends to Dawn, and actually, I think Joyce as well). Now,could love and positive reinforcement have spurred him to get his soul without the AR? Actually, IMO, I don't see how. I mean . . . what would motivate him, if he was already sitting pretty, getting Buffy's love and attention and such, without a soul? He does show, in this ep, that he has some sort of freakish, tiny, vestigal "spark" left in him, that flickers occasionally. That freakish spark is combined with the way the chip has forced him to change his ways, and the way his feelings for Buffy have motivated him to seek her approval and attention. And IMO, it's that one-in-a-million combination of tiny spark, chip, and Buffy-love, that allows Spike to get where he gets in this episode . . . a place where he makes a sacrifice for no reward other than to help Buffy. He actually does this in a smaller way, for the first time in Family, when he hits Tara to prove she's not a demon. So we do work up to this moment. You're welcome! If you have any further thoughts, questions, insights on any of this, please post away. Not to worry, baunger1. 5 years is nothing in vampire-years. I'm sure there will be lots of thinky thoughts for your renewal of the discussion. And yes, in the Buffy-verse, the canon is no full redemption without a soul, but there are many Spike fans who would have liked to see a go at it soul-less. And of course, the soul is not as defining in the Angel-verse. Lorne's demon soullessness is never at issue and he is one of the must gentle, kind residents of Angel's circle who is broken up by his final required deeds in that series. So yes, there are a lot of opinions, preferences, wishful thinking, what have you among the fans about Spike and a soul. Really good point there, about Lorne, lefty. I had never really given that aspect of things much thought, though I think its fair to say that the statement "in the Buffyverse, a soul is needed to tell right from wrong" should be modified to "for a human being, a soul is needed . . ." A vampire is a human being who has lost his or her soul, and on top of that, has had an evil demon take the soul's place. A very different situation from Lorne. I will never forget my meal with you, Lola, Michelle, and Monnie - I was the only right-hander in the bunch! Yes, I was the odd man out, the one who had to worry about not elbowing others as she ate - wierd! There must be something about Buffy fandom that attracts you guys.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 29, 2010 23:13:01 GMT -5
Thanks so much for responding. I very much appreciate your thoughts. If I am able to take a step back, I do understand the idea of Spike's needing a soul, an internal moral compass, and I can accept that idea. The problem I have is that I didn't emotionally respond this way. I guess this is largely due to the fact that I really, really, really fell in love with Spike, and experienced enormous empathy, sympathy, and identification with him. I mean, we all try to be better for the person or people we love, want to be better because they deserve us to be better. And our efforts aren't any less legitimate because they are externally motivated in that way. So for Spike's pre-soul efforts to go, not only unacknowledged, but essentially ignored or denied, was very painful to me. As was the terrible physical and emotional abuse inflicted upon him. All through season 6, I just kept feeling like "C'mon! He's trying so hard! And fighting against his own nature! Reward him! He deserves to be loved!" I think those feelings really influenced how I viewed the events of season 6, and made it difficult to accept that the AR was not simply a construct used to propel Spike to seek his soul. Having a little distance from watching this for the first time and thinking more about it, I am more inclined to agree that the events need to occur as they do, but as I say, I still struggle with this. Because, in case you didn't get this, I really, really, really love Spike. My two cents on this: I agree completely that Spike's efforts to be good are not less legit because he is doing them for Buffy's love/approval. I do think though, that without his soul, his efforts are doomed. He is never going to move from "doing it for Buffy's approval" to "doing good for its own sake," without that soul. Pre-soul, unlike post soul, Spike feels no guilt for his previous lengthy and horrible killing sprees, that included killing for fun, torture, and rape. This is a big problem with pre-soul Spike. A big problem. No matter how hard he's trying to be good to and for Buffy, a remorseless murder of thousands is not, and never will be, good boyfriend material. The fan-fic cannot be written that would convince me of that. Buffy didn't give Spike much encouragement or attention for his efforts, but that is not about whether or not Spike deserved, or needed, encouragement or attention. It's about the fact that Buffy was so overwhelmed, depressed, and traumatized that she was unable to do a very good job giving anyone, including herself, love and attention during S6. I felt really badly for both characters during S6. I felt that they were both so damaged and in so much pain - and that both were trying very, very, hard to climb out of the hole they were in. They helped each other, and they hurt each other, but ultimately, they were each other's salvation. And IMO, the bad and the good in the Spuffy relationship was 100% mutual, from S2 - S7. Each gave as good as he or she got. I agree that the AR was a device used to propel Spike to seek his soul, but I thought it was a perfectly believable device - one that was set up very carefully, and executed very well. I don't see it as an artificial construct. So, you're saying . . . you kinda like Spike, then? Join the crowd! I absolutely loved the character and his development throughout the series.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 29, 2010 23:19:09 GMT -5
Well, you're in the right place. Spike love is what we're all about here. First, welcome to the board. Second, feel free to wander about. The general board above is for all the life-y stuff we do and there's lots and lots of tv love tossed about. As for Spike's evolution, lots of talkage about that, too. IMHO, Spike begins changing as early as Season 2 when he allies with Buffy to get Drusilla back. In this early stage he's all about her care. This is an early sign that Spike is different from most vampires. He's able to care for someone (Drusilla) outside himself. This is brought more clearly into perspective when we see how she treats him when their roles are reversed. Thereafter, each season we see Spike slowly change. It isn't obvious except in retrospect. The addition of the chip accelerates the process and his developing feelings for Buffy--and her family--accelerate the process even more. I've heard a lot of argument that Spike does what he does not because he feels anything but because he's got the possibility of Buffy as a "carrot" to motivate him. But I see Spike's journey to be much the same as that of a baby, first knowing the world only as an extension of itself and then slowly bringing other people into it as assets to help it along and finally understanding that other people need and deserve care and lastly feeling for others as well as oneself. If Buffy provides the motivation to Spike that motivation can be echoed in a child's desire to please a parent (do we really need to go into Freudian imagry here and focus on the child's desire to possess the parent?) If you want a discussion of Spike's journey to compliment Spring's amazing analyses, please read my essay, Baby Steps I'd very much like to hear what you think. Well said, Diane. Spike goes on exactly that journey, and the soul getting is a part of that journey . . . though it definitely isn't the end of that journey, toward understanding, as you say, "other people need and deserve care and lastly feeling for others as well as oneself." The soul-getting wasn't the be-all or end-all - it was just one step on his journey. It was a crucial step, but still, just a step. Post soul, he still had a lot to learn, and he learned some of it in S7, and was still learning it over on AtS.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Apr 30, 2010 6:26:34 GMT -5
Well, you're in the right place. Spike love is what we're all about here. First, welcome to the board. Second, feel free to wander about. The general board above is for all the life-y stuff we do and there's lots and lots of tv love tossed about. As for Spike's evolution, lots of talkage about that, too. IMHO, Spike begins changing as early as Season 2 when he allies with Buffy to get Drusilla back. In this early stage he's all about her care. This is an early sign that Spike is different from most vampires. He's able to care for someone (Drusilla) outside himself. This is brought more clearly into perspective when we see how she treats him when their roles are reversed. Thereafter, each season we see Spike slowly change. It isn't obvious except in retrospect. The addition of the chip accelerates the process and his developing feelings for Buffy--and her family--accelerate the process even more. I've heard a lot of argument that Spike does what he does not because he feels anything but because he's got the possibility of Buffy as a "carrot" to motivate him. But I see Spike's journey to be much the same as that of a baby, first knowing the world only as an extension of itself and then slowly bringing other people into it as assets to help it along and finally understanding that other people need and deserve care and lastly feeling for others as well as oneself. If Buffy provides the motivation to Spike that motivation can be echoed in a child's desire to please a parent (do we really need to go into Freudian imagry here and focus on the child's desire to possess the parent?) If you want a discussion of Spike's journey to compliment Spring's amazing analyses, please read my essay, Baby Steps I'd very much like to hear what you think. Well said, Diane. Spike goes on exactly that journey, and the soul getting is a part of that journey . . . though it definitely isn't the end of that journey, toward understanding, as you say, "other people need and deserve care and lastly feeling for others as well as oneself." The soul-getting wasn't the be-all or end-all - it was just one step on his journey. It was a crucial step, but still, just a step. Post soul, he still had a lot to learn, and he learned some of it in S7, and was still learning it over on AtS. Of course the soul-getting wasn't the end of the journey. In many ways it was just the beginning--and everything before it was just prologue. We're all on the same journey Spike is on--and it only ends when we die-- --or maybe not even then. What I love about it is that Joss brilliantly spreads it across six seasons and so masterfully (Marstersfully?) that we hardly notice it as it happens in front of us.
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Post by baunger1 on Apr 30, 2010 7:10:26 GMT -5
Well, you're in the right place. Spike love is what we're all about here. IMHO, Spike begins changing as early as Season 2 when he allies with Buffy to get Drusilla back. In this early stage he's all about her care. This is an early sign that Spike is different from most vampires. He's able to care for someone (Drusilla) outside himself. This is brought more clearly into perspective when we see how she treats him when their roles are reversed. Thereafter, each season we see Spike slowly change. It isn't obvious except in retrospect. The addition of the chip accelerates the process and his developing feelings for Buffy--and her family--accelerate the process even more. I've heard a lot of argument that Spike does what he does not because he feels anything but because he's got the possibility of Buffy as a "carrot" to motivate him. But I see Spike's journey to be much the same as that of a baby, first knowing the world only as an extension of itself and then slowly bringing other people into it as assets to help it along and finally understanding that other people need and deserve care and lastly feeling for others as well as oneself. If Buffy provides the motivation to Spike that motivation can be echoed in a child's desire to please a parent (do we really need to go into Freudian imagry here and focus on the child's desire to possess the parent?) If you want a discussion of Spike's journey to compliment Spring's amazing analyses, please read my essay, Baby Steps I'd very much like to hear what you think. Thanks for referring me to your essay. I think it's a very understandable and coherent way of looking at Spike's progress. I really appreciate that you acknowledge his extraordinary pre-soul efforts. I definitely agree that Spike's changes begin early on. I think his ability to change is rooted in the thing most unique about him -- his enormous capacity for, and desire to, love. So from the start, in season 2, as you point out, he is willing to do whatever it takes, including abandoning evil, and aligning himself with good, in pursuit of that. I've also had some thoughts about Spike's journey being analogous to that of addiction/recovery (not that I'm equating addiction with evil -- the analogy only goes so far). That both the addict and Spike are afflicted with a condition not of their choosing and beyond their control, even if they may acquiesce to and even enjoy aspects of it; the condition causes them to behave in an amoral and selfish fashion which causes terrible harm to themselves and others; that merely stopping a specific behavior (i.e., using substances/feeding on humans), is not an end to the underlying problem, but rather only provides the potential to address that problem; that addressing the underlying problem requires making character changes achieved by taking a moral inventory and making amends to those one has harmed, and developing a moral compass/ by getting a soul, atoning, and developing a moral compass.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Apr 30, 2010 11:06:00 GMT -5
Well, you're in the right place. Spike love is what we're all about here. IMHO, Spike begins changing as early as Season 2 when he allies with Buffy to get Drusilla back. In this early stage he's all about her care. This is an early sign that Spike is different from most vampires. He's able to care for someone (Drusilla) outside himself. This is brought more clearly into perspective when we see how she treats him when their roles are reversed. Thereafter, each season we see Spike slowly change. It isn't obvious except in retrospect. The addition of the chip accelerates the process and his developing feelings for Buffy--and her family--accelerate the process even more. I've heard a lot of argument that Spike does what he does not because he feels anything but because he's got the possibility of Buffy as a "carrot" to motivate him. But I see Spike's journey to be much the same as that of a baby, first knowing the world only as an extension of itself and then slowly bringing other people into it as assets to help it along and finally understanding that other people need and deserve care and lastly feeling for others as well as oneself. If Buffy provides the motivation to Spike that motivation can be echoed in a child's desire to please a parent (do we really need to go into Freudian imagry here and focus on the child's desire to possess the parent?) If you want a discussion of Spike's journey to compliment Spring's amazing analyses, please read my essay, Baby Steps I'd very much like to hear what you think. Thanks for referring me to your essay. I think it's a very understandable and coherent way of looking at Spike's progress. I really appreciate that you acknowledge his extraordinary pre-soul efforts. I definitely agree that Spike's changes begin early on. I think his ability to change is rooted in the thing most unique about him -- his enormous capacity for, and desire to, love. So from the start, in season 2, as you point out, he is willing to do whatever it takes, including abandoning evil, and aligning himself with good, in pursuit of that. I've also had some thoughts about Spike's journey being analogous to that of addiction/recovery (not that I'm equating addiction with evil -- the analogy only goes so far). That both the addict and Spike are afflicted with a condition not of their choosing and beyond their control, even if they may acquiesce to and even enjoy aspects of it; the condition causes them to behave in an amoral and selfish fashion which causes terrible harm to themselves and others; that merely stopping a specific behavior (i.e., using substances/feeding on humans), is not an end to the underlying problem, but rather only provides the potential to address that problem; that addressing the underlying problem requires making character changes achieved by taking a moral inventory and making amends to those one has harmed, and developing a moral compass/ by getting a soul, atoning, and developing a moral compass. I want to thank you for bringing this up; you gave me the key to a larger problem I've been worrying over, in fandom and in the larger society: that for a lot of people, there is no forgiveness, ever, for a wide range of transgressions. That moment of horror in the bathroom in Seeing Red negates everything Spike has done and experienced before (in Intervention, in Spiral, Weight of the World, Spiral, The Gift) and every length he goes to afterward to change his unlife. No apology, no act of contrition, no epiphany nor long process of redemption; in pop culture right now it's entirely OK for one act to utterly damn a person for life. Any discussion of Spike the character, outside this safe cloister, becomes an excoriation of that character and Joss Whedon, these days; in fandom, it used to be Marti Noxon who took the blows but now Spike is seen as a harbinger of the gender and race issues which have come to dominate the discussion of Firefly/Serenity, Dr. Horrible, and Dollhouse. That all of these works address the drive to do good and the necessity of compassion is rejected out of hand, as if it is not the core message of much of Whedon's work. Julia, v. cranky about this, since I am prone to express myself in the worst possible way and offending people when I mean to agree with them
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 30, 2010 12:04:47 GMT -5
Well, you're in the right place. Spike love is what we're all about here. IMHO, Spike begins changing as early as Season 2 when he allies with Buffy to get Drusilla back. In this early stage he's all about her care. This is an early sign that Spike is different from most vampires. He's able to care for someone (Drusilla) outside himself. This is brought more clearly into perspective when we see how she treats him when their roles are reversed. Thereafter, each season we see Spike slowly change. It isn't obvious except in retrospect. The addition of the chip accelerates the process and his developing feelings for Buffy--and her family--accelerate the process even more. I've heard a lot of argument that Spike does what he does not because he feels anything but because he's got the possibility of Buffy as a "carrot" to motivate him. But I see Spike's journey to be much the same as that of a baby, first knowing the world only as an extension of itself and then slowly bringing other people into it as assets to help it along and finally understanding that other people need and deserve care and lastly feeling for others as well as oneself. If Buffy provides the motivation to Spike that motivation can be echoed in a child's desire to please a parent (do we really need to go into Freudian imagry here and focus on the child's desire to possess the parent?) If you want a discussion of Spike's journey to compliment Spring's amazing analyses, please read my essay, Baby Steps I'd very much like to hear what you think. Thanks for referring me to your essay. I think it's a very understandable and coherent way of looking at Spike's progress. I really appreciate that you acknowledge his extraordinary pre-soul efforts. I definitely agree that Spike's changes begin early on. I think his ability to change is rooted in the thing most unique about him -- his enormous capacity for, and desire to, love. So from the start, in season 2, as you point out, he is willing to do whatever it takes, including abandoning evil, and aligning himself with good, in pursuit of that. I've also had some thoughts about Spike's journey being analogous to that of addiction/recovery (not that I'm equating addiction with evil -- the analogy only goes so far). That both the addict and Spike are afflicted with a condition not of their choosing and beyond their control, even if they may acquiesce to and even enjoy aspects of it; the condition causes them to behave in an amoral and selfish fashion which causes terrible harm to themselves and others; that merely stopping a specific behavior (i.e., using substances/feeding on humans), is not an end to the underlying problem, but rather only provides the potential to address that problem; that addressing the underlying problem requires making character changes achieved by taking a moral inventory and making amends to those one has harmed, and developing a moral compass/ by getting a soul, atoning, and developing a moral compass.Nice summation. Definitely agree with all of you that this is the sort of journey that Spike undertakes - and that redemption is about putting one foot in front of the other regardless of what horrors are in your past. And another point - ultimately, working toward redemption is not about gaining anyone's acceptance, approval, attention, reward, acknowlegment, or even, really, the end goal: Redemption. It's just about consistently and persistently, and to the best of your ability, doing what you know is right - moment by moment, day by day. In different ways, this is what both Spike and Angel attempt to do, as they make their journeys. Good to see the joint rockin' a bit over here in this thread!
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Post by leftylady on Apr 30, 2010 16:44:26 GMT -5
Thanks so much for responding. I very much appreciate your thoughts. If I am able to take a step back, I do understand the idea of Spike's needing a soul, an internal moral compass, and I can accept that idea. The problem I have is that I didn't emotionally respond this way. I guess this is largely due to the fact that I really, really, really fell in love with Spike, and experienced enormous empathy, sympathy, and identification with him. I mean, we all try to be better for the person or people we love, want to be better because they deserve us to be better. And our efforts aren't any less legitimate because they are externally motivated in that way. So for Spike's pre-soul efforts to go, not only unacknowledged, but essentially ignored or denied, was very painful to me. As was the terrible physical and emotional abuse inflicted upon him. All through season 6, I just kept feeling like "C'mon! He's trying so hard! And fighting against his own nature! Reward him! He deserves to be loved!" I think those feelings really influenced how I viewed the events of season 6, and made it difficult to accept that the AR was not simply a construct used to propel Spike to seek his soul. Having a little distance from watching this for the first time and thinking more about it, I am more inclined to agree that the events need to occur as they do, but as I say, I still struggle with this. Because, in case you didn't get this, I really, really, really love Spike. I can understand that. I recently ran across an old essay on Spikedom that posited that fwith many fans they started viewing the new episodes as they aired through a "Spike filter", myself included. Obviously the filter is an emotional response and not logical. The essay went on to say the producers and writers were blindsided by the audience reactions to some of the episodes and events that did not play out as the producers/writers had envisioned. Distance from the original series helps one's perspective become more well rounded and able to view other characters' journeys better and not just Spike's. leftylady
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