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Post by leftylady on Apr 30, 2010 16:45:41 GMT -5
Well, you're in the right place. Spike love is what we're all about here. First, welcome to the board. Second, feel free to wander about. The general board above is for all the life-y stuff we do and there's lots and lots of tv love tossed about. As for Spike's evolution, lots of talkage about that, too. IMHO, Spike begins changing as early as Season 2 when he allies with Buffy to get Drusilla back. In this early stage he's all about her care. This is an early sign that Spike is different from most vampires. He's able to care for someone (Drusilla) outside himself. This is brought more clearly into perspective when we see how she treats him when their roles are reversed. Thereafter, each season we see Spike slowly change. It isn't obvious except in retrospect. The addition of the chip accelerates the process and his developing feelings for Buffy--and her family--accelerate the process even more. I've heard a lot of argument that Spike does what he does not because he feels anything but because he's got the possibility of Buffy as a "carrot" to motivate him. But I see Spike's journey to be much the same as that of a baby, first knowing the world only as an extension of itself and then slowly bringing other people into it as assets to help it along and finally understanding that other people need and deserve care and lastly feeling for others as well as oneself.If Buffy provides the motivation to Spike that motivation can be echoed in a child's desire to please a parent (do we really need to go into Freudian imagry here and focus on the child's desire to possess the parent?) If you want a discussion of Spike's journey to compliment Spring's amazing analyses, please read my essay, Baby Steps I'd very much like to hear what you think. Good analogy. I'll have to re-read your essay! ;D leftylady
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Post by leftylady on Apr 30, 2010 16:52:08 GMT -5
Not to worry, baunger1. 5 years is nothing in vampire-years. I'm sure there will be lots of thinky thoughts for your renewal of the discussion. And yes, in the Buffy-verse, the canon is no full redemption without a soul, but there are many Spike fans who would have liked to see a go at it soul-less. And of course, the soul is not as defining in the Angel-verse. Lorne's demon soullessness is never at issue and he is one of the must gentle, kind residents of Angel's circle who is broken up by his final required deeds in that series. So yes, there are a lot of opinions, preferences, wishful thinking, what have you among the fans about Spike and a soul. Really good point there, about Lorne, lefty. I had never really given that aspect of things much thought, though I think its fair to say that the statement "in the Buffyverse, a soul is needed to tell right from wrong" should be modified to "for a human being, a soul is needed . . ."A vampire is a human being who has lost his or her soul, and on top of that, has had an evil demon take the soul's place. A very different situation from Lorne.I will never forget my meal with you, Lola, Michelle, and Monnie - I was the only right-hander in the bunch! Yes, I was the odd man out, the one who had to worry about not elbowing others as she ate - wierd! There must be something about Buffy fandom that attracts you guys. True, a good way to look at it. Only the vampires lost their soul. Other never had or maybe never needed. But humans without souls (or humans who don;t use their souls) are bad if you look at it that way. But I still love the fanfic about Spike being good without a soul. ;D (Nan had one in which removal of the soul was a key point...) leftylady, who says lefties rule, especially at lunch!
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Post by leftylady on Apr 30, 2010 17:00:47 GMT -5
Thanks for referring me to your essay. I think it's a very understandable and coherent way of looking at Spike's progress. I really appreciate that you acknowledge his extraordinary pre-soul efforts. I definitely agree that Spike's changes begin early on. I think his ability to change is rooted in the thing most unique about him -- his enormous capacity for, and desire to, love. So from the start, in season 2, as you point out, he is willing to do whatever it takes, including abandoning evil, and aligning himself with good, in pursuit of that. I've also had some thoughts about Spike's journey being analogous to that of addiction/recovery (not that I'm equating addiction with evil -- the analogy only goes so far). That both the addict and Spike are afflicted with a condition not of their choosing and beyond their control, even if they may acquiesce to and even enjoy aspects of it; the condition causes them to behave in an amoral and selfish fashion which causes terrible harm to themselves and others; that merely stopping a specific behavior (i.e., using substances/feeding on humans), is not an end to the underlying problem, but rather only provides the potential to address that problem; that addressing the underlying problem requires making character changes achieved by taking a moral inventory and making amends to those one has harmed, and developing a moral compass/ by getting a soul, atoning, and developing a moral compass. I want to thank you for bringing this up; you gave me the key to a larger problem I've been worrying over, in fandom and in the larger society: that for a lot of people, there is no forgiveness, ever, for a wide range of transgressions. That moment of horror in the bathroom in Seeing Red negates everything Spike has done and experienced before (in Intervention, in Spiral, Weight of the World, Spiral, The Gift) and every length he goes to afterward to change his unlife. No apology, no act of contrition, no epiphany nor long process of redemption; in pop culture right now it's entirely OK for one act to utterly damn a person for life. Any discussion of Spike the character, outside this safe cloister, becomes an excoriation of that character and Joss Whedon, these days; in fandom, it used to be Marti Noxon who took the blows but now Spike is seen as a harbinger of the gender and race issues which have come to dominate the discussion of Firefly/Serenity, Dr. Horrible, and Dollhouse. That all of these works address the drive to do good and the necessity of compassion is rejected out of hand, as if it is not the core message of much of Whedon's work. Julia, v. cranky about this, since I am prone to express myself in the worst possible way and offending people when I mean to agree with them Yes, we keep out discussions here sane and if not always in agreement, courteously agreeing to disagree. As I mentioned the Spike Filter, there are those who early on in the series apparently adopted a BuffyandAngel4eva filter and anything that threatened this outcome -especially Spike- demanded vilification, although Angel has many faults of his own. I very much liked Angel in his own right and respected his struggles but resented the Angel vs Spike competition by fandom. There was enough within the storylines that Joss wanted. ;D Liking one does not discredit the other. leftylady
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Post by baunger1 on Apr 30, 2010 21:21:12 GMT -5
And another point - ultimately, working toward redemption is not about gaining anyone's acceptance, approval, attention, reward, acknowlegment, or even, really, the end goal: Redemption.
It's just about consistently and persistently, and to the best of your ability, doing what you know is right - moment by moment, day by day.
Yes. Unfortunately I'm not there yet myself -- not that evolved. I still need lots of pats on the head.
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Post by baunger1 on Apr 30, 2010 21:23:44 GMT -5
Thanks so much for responding. I very much appreciate your thoughts. If I am able to take a step back, I do understand the idea of Spike's needing a soul, an internal moral compass, and I can accept that idea. The problem I have is that I didn't emotionally respond this way. I guess this is largely due to the fact that I really, really, really fell in love with Spike, and experienced enormous empathy, sympathy, and identification with him. I mean, we all try to be better for the person or people we love, want to be better because they deserve us to be better. And our efforts aren't any less legitimate because they are externally motivated in that way. So for Spike's pre-soul efforts to go, not only unacknowledged, but essentially ignored or denied, was very painful to me. As was the terrible physical and emotional abuse inflicted upon him. All through season 6, I just kept feeling like "C'mon! He's trying so hard! And fighting against his own nature! Reward him! He deserves to be loved!" I think those feelings really influenced how I viewed the events of season 6, and made it difficult to accept that the AR was not simply a construct used to propel Spike to seek his soul. Having a little distance from watching this for the first time and thinking more about it, I am more inclined to agree that the events need to occur as they do, but as I say, I still struggle with this. Because, in case you didn't get this, I really, really, really love Spike. I can understand that. I recently ran across an old essay on Spikedom that posited that fwith many fans they started viewing the new episodes as they aired through a "Spike filter", myself included. Obviously the filter is an emotional response and not logical. The essay went on to say the producers and writers were blindsided by the audience reactions to some of the episodes and events that did not play out as the producers/writers had envisioned. Distance from the original series helps one's perspective become more well rounded and able to view other characters' journeys better and not just Spike's. leftylady Agreed. Kind of hard to remove the filter when you're looking at him, though.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 30, 2010 21:38:24 GMT -5
And another point - ultimately, working toward redemption is not about gaining anyone's acceptance, approval, attention, reward, acknowlegment, or even, really, the end goal: Redemption. It's just about consistently and persistently, and to the best of your ability, doing what you know is right - moment by moment, day by day. Yes. Unfortunately I'm not there yet myself -- not that evolved. I still need lots of pats on the head. In that case: Thanks for the post and getting this interesting discussion going, baunger1. And thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. You are a good S'cubie! YAY!! Letting go of the need for external reward is a constant work-in-progress, for everyone, I think. But I do see "doing what's right because it's the right thing to do" as a proper goal. It may not be entirely attainable by human beings - but still, it's worth reaching for. Spike, post-soul, has this figured out - you can tell in the way he talks to Buffy, telling her that he is no longer about wanting anything in particular from her. Of course, making the realization and living the realization are two different things. And like all of us, Spike encounters some challenges and set backs and such, as he tries to go from "talking-the-talk" to "walking-the-walk."
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